Borthwick Era

[Banquo]

I've not seen anything from Tuilagi since 2019 that makes me think he's the force he once was. I think he's done as a top level performer.

He looked good for Sale the other day at 12. But he just can't put a string of games together, and he is 31...its a fair point that he shouldn't be an automatic pick when fit.

[loudnconfident]

10. Farrell
12. Kelly
13. Manu

Easy. Smith and Lawrence on the bench presumably.

An entire midfield, all in their specialist positions?
It'll never work.

I'm affear'd. 'tis against the laws of Nature.

[Timbo]

I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

[Banquo]

I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

[Scrumhead]

Gleeson off now too. Evans coming in for the 6N, but who knows beyond that? Maybe it’s being looked at as a 5 game job interview?

[Banquo]

Gleeson off now too. Evans coming in for the 6N, but who knows beyond that? Maybe it’s being looked at as a 5 game job interview?

Try before you buy, maybe

[FKAS]

Come on Gleeson, come to Tigers. Got some of your old pals here and we could do with some continued improvement on the attacking side of things.

[Oakboy]

I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

[Mellsblue]

I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

[Which Tyler]

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

So... take out his USP, and suddenly, he has no USP, and is therefore not worth a place in the squad.
Wow, I'm shocked.

Take away LRZ's pace, and he's no better than any other winger.
Take away Finn Russel's inventiveness, and he's no better than any other FH.

[Oakboy]

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

[Oakboy]

There was a recent Sale match where Tuilagi came on to a good pass at pace about 10 yards from the try line with one defender to beat. Try, I thought! But the defender stopped him quite comfortably. 4/5 years back it would have been a certainty.

[Mellsblue]

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

[FKAS]

Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

Toulouse's very good team aren't managing to stop him with a single man tackle.

He's not explosive as he used to be but his stamina has improved considerably.

[Mellsblue]

Serious d. Great tracking back from 20. Happened right in front of me and he could’ve given it up as a lost cause. Motivation or collaboration! Perhaps a combo of both.
Have the cameras shown Sinfield? Fairly certain he’s sat approx 5m from me.

[fivepointer]

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

Toulouse's very good team aren't managing to stop him with a single man tackle.

He's not explosive as he used to be but his stamina has improved considerably.

He looked knackered in the 2nd half.

[FKAS]

If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

Toulouse's very good team aren't managing to stop him with a single man tackle.

He's not explosive as he used to be but his stamina has improved considerably.

He looked knackered in the 2nd half.

Yeah, he doesn't finish many games either. Maybe I should have said his work rate has improved as opposed to stamina.

[stepsider]

Itoji limping off before the end of the Sarries game (after quite lengthy on-field treatment and having previously had his ankle strapped up) may suggest a second-row change v the Scots.

[Timbo]

Itoji limping off before the end of the Sarries game (after quite lengthy on-field treatment and having previously had his ankle strapped up) may suggest a second-row change v the Scots.

He’s still got a few weeks to recover. Didn’t look bad enough to panic at this point.

[Mikey Brown]

Surely he’s got to be fit to train in just over 1 week? I’m not very good at maths though.

[Banquo]

I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

I think your first sentence is plain wrong; he obviously offers something different to Farrell- and imo that would improve the backline if Smith or Ford were at 10. He isn't the player he was, its true.

[16th man]

Itoji limping off before the end of the Sarries game (after quite lengthy on-field treatment and having previously had his ankle strapped up) may suggest a second-row change v the Scots.

He’s still got a few weeks to recover. Didn’t look bad enough to panic at this point.

It's a reminder that we can muse about Borthwick's philosophy and if he'll go continuity vs changes but ultimately he won't be the first or last head coach who ends up having to make something work out of whoever is still standing come kick off.

[Timbo]

Surely he’s got to be fit to train in just over 1 week?

Why?

[Mikey Brown]

We’d want him to train ahead of the Scotland game? Am I missing something obvious here?

[Timbo]

We’d want him to train ahead of the Scotland game? Am I missing something obvious here?

For someone like Itoje, with his quality and experience, they’d be willing to give him to around the middle of test week to be fully fit? 2 to 2 1/2 weeks or so?