RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:38 am I've not seen anything from Tuilagi since 2019 that makes me think he's the force he once was. I think he's done as a top level performer.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:17 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:06 pm 10. Farrell
12. Kelly
13. Manu

Easy. Smith and Lawrence on the bench presumably.

An entire midfield, all in their specialist positions?
It'll never work.

Timbo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:02 pm I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:23 pm Gleeson off now too. Evans coming in for the 6N, but who knows beyond that? Maybe it’s being looked at as a 5 game job interview?

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:30 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:02 pm I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:03 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:30 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:02 pm I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:03 amIf you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:56 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:03 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:30 pm

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:42 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:56 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:03 am

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:45 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:42 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:56 am
Isn’t his bludgeoning, and the number of defenders it attracts, pretty much the whole point as we have no one else to do it. There are plenty of examples of his presence alone making space for others. His bludgeoning in d is also something no other back can produce.

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:22 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:45 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:42 am

Exactly, but he can't do it anymore. I don't think opposition defences at international level (based on the AIs, anyway) need more than a a good single defender to stop him. That's the point, surely?

If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

Toulouse's very good team aren't managing to stop him with a single man tackle.

He's not explosive as he used to be but his stamina has improved considerably.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:01 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:22 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:45 pm
If that’s the case then you’re right, but I’m not sure it is.

Toulouse's very good team aren't managing to stop him with a single man tackle.

He's not explosive as he used to be but his stamina has improved considerably.

He looked knackered in the 2nd half.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:17 pm Itoji limping off before the end of the Sarries game (after quite lengthy on-field treatment and having previously had his ankle strapped up) may suggest a second-row change v the Scots.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:03 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:30 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:02 pm I’d suggest that Manu is unequivocally not the athlete he was. Definitely not what he was in his early 20’s and not even what he was at the last World Cup.

I still think he is a good enough all round player and someone who still provides a significant point of difference to warrant a place in the squad. I’ve seen quite a bit of Sale this season and they always look better when he’s on the pitch. He’s a good defender, especially at 12- big help if we pick Ford or Smith at 10- and has a low all round error rate. He still needs marking heavily, usually gets over the gainline and if he gets a soft shoulder can break the line. Pick him alongside another proper centre, someone who also is a running threat, with a quick & dangerous back 3 and I reckon he could still be a key cog.

Yes- but imo not the obvious and automatic pick of what seems like eons ago. As I've said a load of times, he could do a job as an old fashioned gainline 12, which would work well outside both Smith (with a bit of adjusting to Smith's running quirks) and Ford.

If you take out Tuilagi's bludgeoning ability/method of getting beyond opposing defenders, what is left is no improvement on Farrell at 12, IMO. I don't want Farrell in the 12 shirt but his recent club games at 10 have at least demonstrated the odd smidgeon of guile/disguise. I just don't think Tuilagi has good enough hands or an astute enough rugby brain to offer a threat at international level without his former physicality. He is certainly not a quality link player. Most important for me, though, is that he is blocking a squad shirt. Others might improve. He won't.

Timbo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:17 pm Itoji limping off before the end of the Sarries game (after quite lengthy on-field treatment and having previously had his ankle strapped up) may suggest a second-row change v the Scots.

He’s still got a few weeks to recover. Didn’t look bad enough to panic at this point.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:53 am Surely he’s got to be fit to train in just over 1 week?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:24 pm We’d want him to train ahead of the Scotland game? Am I missing something obvious here?