Squad named

[FKAS]

Blamire has been very good for Newcastle since getting the starting job, was a bit surprised to see him omitted to be honest.

Re Itoje did the law change which stopped you coming through the breakdown and kicking the ball out effect him badly or am I misremembering? I seem to remember that being one of Itoje's go to moves.

[Puja]

When was the last time Barbeary played hooker? in theory it sounds a good idea to play him there given our strengths elsewhere but it may not be that straightforward. Does he want to play there for starters?
I do think Blamire is a WC possible and certainly should be in the mix post the event.
Had hoped Sam Riley would come through at Quins but so far he's not making an impression.

Barbeary has never played hooker at adult level, IIRC, and has made statements saying that he wants to play back row. Now, I often disagree with players playing in their preferred positions if they're better elsewhere, but I think, at this stage, it's akin to asking LCD to go back to prop or Genge to 8.

Blamire has looked good with regular game time and I'd say is a bit unlucky to miss out to Walker for the 6N. Apart from anything else, we do know Blamire can cope at the very top end, whereas McGuigan and Walker are guesses right now. I suppose that's as good a reason as any for trying them out now, but I think I'd rather get the experience into Blamire personally.

Puja

[SDHoneymonster]

Blamire has been very good for Newcastle since getting the starting job, was a bit surprised to see him omitted to be honest.

Re Itoje did the law change which stopped you coming through the breakdown and kicking the ball out effect him badly or am I misremembering? I seem to remember that being one of Itoje's go to moves.

Both he and Kruis were masters of it, although that law changed a good while ago now so I suspect it has had little impact.

[p/d]

should we not read too much into; 'It's great we have a 10 that wants to tackle and put his body on the line' ....... Sinfield discussing Mallinder, oops, I mean Farrell.

[SDHoneymonster]

should we not read too much into; 'It's great we have a 10 that wants to tackle and put his body on the line' ....... Sinfield discussing Mallinder, oops, I mean Farrell.

Has Charlie Hodgson come out of retirement?!

[FKAS]

Blamire has been very good for Newcastle since getting the starting job, was a bit surprised to see him omitted to be honest.

Re Itoje did the law change which stopped you coming through the breakdown and kicking the ball out effect him badly or am I misremembering? I seem to remember that being one of Itoje's go to moves.

Both he and Kruis were masters of it, although that law changed a good while ago now so I suspect it has had little impact.

Well if we're saying Itoje's peak form was 2019 then that would tally with that law change and him losing that option when attacking opposition rucks.

[Timbo]

That law changed in 2017.

[Banquo]

As above, it's not as if he is suddenly a bad player (indeed, he must still be inked in for the 15 slightly behind O.Farrell), but he's stood still *at best*. Personally, I think he's recently been a bit of a penalty machine that ought to get marched 10 occasionally - or whatever else gives him a bit of a kick - to both stop shouting and start playing intelligently again

OK- so in answer to you and Puja....if he's 'stood still' at best from being the best lock in the world, then (at best) he's still the best lock in the world . On discipline, in his last 11 England games, he's given away 10 penalties- so not great, but hardly a penalty machine and likely below his earlier days; law changes/enforcement on hands on the ground would have affected him imo, as a tangential comment. But his all round contribution in the tight, in restarts, and work rate in loose play seem of his usual standard to me, and I even think his carrying is improved.

So, again, not quite sure what is driving the belief that he's going backwards. I suspect he's probably picking and choosing more, as he always seems to play 80, and that's getting tougher and tougher as the game speeds up and the ball is in play much longer.

I'm still puzzled as to 'domination of the world game'...unless that's just shorthand for Maro is in the very top bracket of international players and influences most games he plays in?

[Puja]

I'm still puzzled as to 'domination of the world game'...unless that's just shorthand for Maro is in the very top bracket of international players and influences most games he plays in?

I'm fascinated by your fascination with a fairly straightforward turn of phrase. Itoje was the best lock in the world in 2019 at 24. I was expecting him to kick on from there, continue developing and improving, become one of the all-time greats of English rugby - I thought he had that potential.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Itoje needs to buck his ideas up......

Its all relative. For a time he was looking mustard. He's not quite at that level (he's not alone if course) but he's still one of our best players and one of the first name on the teamsheet.

Now would be the prefect time to raise his game a notch or two.

[SDHoneymonster]

Would it perhaps be relevant to point out that, at the time Itoje had a claim to being one of the best players on the planet, his current head coach was his forwards coach? I agree that Itoje has perhaps not kicked on in the way we expected but he is still very much one of our best players, and it could be that Borthwick is the man to unlock the next level.

[p/d]

Nothing to do with playing alongside Kruis for club and country up until 2020 (I think)........ and then packing down with Hill & Ewelsey

[Banquo]

I'm still puzzled as to 'domination of the world game'...unless that's just shorthand for Maro is in the very top bracket of international players and influences most games he plays in?

I'm fascinated by your fascination with a fairly straightforward turn of phrase. Itoje was the best lock in the world in 2019 at 24. I was expecting him to kick on from there, continue developing and improving, become one of the all-time greats of English rugby - I thought he had that potential.

Puja

Not really the same as domination of the world game tho really. Though as I don't know what the former means, it may do

anyhoo- what development and improvement did you think was in him?

[Banquo]

Itoje needs to buck his ideas up......

Its all relative. For a time he was looking mustard. He's not quite at that level (he's not alone if course) but he's still one of our best players and one of the first name on the teamsheet.

Now would be the prefect time to raise his game a notch or two.

I'll monitor it closely


again though...specifically what do you mean by 'buck his ideas up'. I'm reading lots of standard phrases here, but nothing tangible tbh. I also have seen the 'kicked on' as expected....from being the best lock in the world, to what? . My take is that he has been trying his heart out in a team that has been cited as at best frustrating on here- now you could say that his perceived dip in form (not really by me, but for arguments sake) has been a part of that struggle, or, imo more likely, he's not unusual in not looking as terrific because his team aren't and he's having to do others dirty work.

[16th man]

Itoje needs to buck his ideas up......

Its all relative. For a time he was looking mustard. He's not quite at that level (he's not alone if course) but he's still one of our best players and one of the first name on the teamsheet.

Now would be the prefect time to raise his game a notch or two.

I'll monitor it closely


again though...specifically what do you mean by 'buck his ideas up'. I'm hearing lots of cliches here, but nothing tangible tbh.

It does sound like people either want him to go back to playing on the edge at the breakdown, on top of his lock work, whilst avoiding the penalties that will obviously come from that, or to become more imposing like Etzebeth, but probably not by bulking up and losing some of the ability to get around and be in the right place so often.

There was a point in 2019 and 2020 where he started to get pinged by refs for offences which turned out on replay to be microscopic or non existent, and it does seem that he had to back off a little to avoid those.

[Banquo]

Itoje needs to buck his ideas up......

Its all relative. For a time he was looking mustard. He's not quite at that level (he's not alone if course) but he's still one of our best players and one of the first name on the teamsheet.

Now would be the prefect time to raise his game a notch or two.

I'll monitor it closely


again though...specifically what do you mean by 'buck his ideas up'. I'm hearing lots of cliches here, but nothing tangible tbh.

It does sound like people either want him to go back to playing on the edge at the breakdown, on top of his lock work, whilst avoiding the penalties that will obviously come from that, or to become more imposing like Etzebeth, but probably not by bulking up and losing some of the ability to get around and be in the right place so often.

There was a point in 2019 and 2020 where he started to get pinged by refs for offences which turned out on replay to be microscopic or non existent, and it does seem that he had to back off a little to avoid those.

Well yes, I'm guessing that its the big turnovers that folks may be looking for-(myself, I was hoping to see decreased pen count, which seems to have happened, and better carrying, again seems to have happened; but there are trade offs as you point out.

[Spiffy]

Itoje is still one of the world's best handful of locks. For a bloke who regularly plays the full 80, as pointed out by Banquo above, he is a tremendously consistent, committed and influential performer. You don't have to like him (and I do not particularly) to acknowledge his quality.
If all his England team mates played up to their level of ability, as he does, they would be a very hard bunch to beat.

[badback]

When did he get that injury?

[Renniks]

Are any of our “best players” from 2019 playing better than they did back then?

We've had some great additions, but I don't think many players have kicked on massively who were involved then…

[fivepointer]

Are any of our “best players” from 2019 playing better than they did back then?

We've had some great additions, but I don't think many players have kicked on massively who were involved then…

Its a fair question.

This was the squad -

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Saracens), Sam Underhill (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Mark Wilson (Newcastle/Sale).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton), Willi Heinz (Gloucester), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Jonny May (Leicester), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath), Jack Nowell (Exeter), Henry Slade (Exeter), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester).

Only 12 of that squad are in Borthwicks.

I'd say Genge has stepped up.

[Mellsblue]

I’d suggest Kruis looks better due to his absence…

[Renniks]

I'd say Genge has stepped up.

I'd agree, but, I'm pretty sure he was only benching against Tonga and USA in 2019 RWC

So he wasn't exactly one of our best at the time
(I can't remember if that was an EJ selection issue, or he wasn't good enough off the top of my head though)

[Mikey Brown]

I'd say Genge has stepped up.

I'd agree, but, I'm pretty sure he was only benching against Tonga and USA in 2019 RWC

So he wasn't exactly one of our best at the time
(I can't remember if that was an EJ selection issue, or he wasn't good enough off the top of my head though)

I wouldn't have thought those 2 games are the important ones? Wasn't he dropped for Lawes for NZ and SA? IIRC Lawes was making a huge impact off the bench at the time, but was maybe more suited to continue doing that with Kruis being the go-to set piece guy. Easy in hindsight though.

I think it's fair that basically nobody has been playing better in recent times. Curry for instance I think has still been good but nothing like his reputation suggests. When the whole team is collectively underperforming it's hard to lay that at any one player's feet.

[SDHoneymonster]

Cowan-Dickie is another I think who's improved - not massively, certainly, but when he's not injured he's established first choice now whereas back then he was certainly George's understudy. Ludlam also, although like Genge he was a squad player who rotated in for the Tonga/USA games IIRC rather than a frontliner.

[Banquo]

I'd say Genge has stepped up.

I'd agree, but, I'm pretty sure he was only benching against Tonga and USA in 2019 RWC

So he wasn't exactly one of our best at the time
(I can't remember if that was an EJ selection issue, or he wasn't good enough off the top of my head though)

I wouldn't have thought those 2 games are the important ones? Wasn't he dropped for Lawes for NZ and SA? IIRC Lawes was making a huge impact off the bench at the time, but was maybe more suited to continue doing that with Kruis being the go-to set piece guy. Easy in hindsight though.

I think it's fair that basically nobody has been playing better in recent times. Curry for instance I think has still been good but nothing like his reputation suggests. When the whole team is collectively underperforming it's hard to lay that at any one player's feet.

Think they were referring to Genge?

I think Lawes has got better when fit in the last couple of years, Ludlam also, Daly has hit his straps again at club level. I totally agree with your collective underperformance point.