Team for Italy

[Epaminondas Pules]

well a- who would one start in his place, and b- in discussions about who to drop, Itoje wouldnt be near the top of my list.

Looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs to be somewhat better!!

A Ribbans
B Agreed, to which I'd add my previous point about only bringing in JWillis and Watson at this point

Either way, my temptation isn't about improving the team for the 1-2 matches that Itoje is dropped, it's about giving one of the world's best players a reality check and attitude improvement.

Even without looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs a significant improvement on yesterday

so two tight head locks with a total of about 5 caps?. ok....
Personally no idea how one of our best and generally world class players would respond to a `kick up the ar5e'... may work, may not, but even then a team that needs quality, to some extent results to aid development, and a degree of continuity would be imo unnecessarily disrupted......
I'd be less inclined to publicly rebuke than to tell him what I want to see and give him a game or two to do so- assuming borthers is unhappy- given that was his first matchfor the new team.
esp when other areas need a big work on. Also- no change in midfield for you?

He reacted pretty well when Eddie gave him a kick up the arse.,

[16th man]

Genuinely quite concerned for next weekend having seen Italy stressing the French.

I suspect the French will find another gear for next week,, but I'd take Italy's display to day to have been enough to beat both sides at Twickenham yesterday and the Welsh.

[francoisfou]

Genuinely quite concerned for next weekend having seen Italy stressing the French.

I suspect the French will find another gear for next week,, but I'd take Italy's display to day to have been enough to beat both sides at Twickenham yesterday and the Welsh.

The French, quite simply, have to find another two or three gears in Dublin, or their 14 match winning streak will come tumbling to a halt. Italy, however, are a breath of fresh air, and if they can find a scrum half who’s not susceptible to regular brain farts then they’ll be even more threatening.

[Scrumhead]

Italy’s improvement is great to see and I think their performance today is actually a good thing for us too.

Any complacency that might have been there, surely isn’t going to be now and if we do win, perhaps it becomes a bit more credit worthy than the usual expectation of ‘it’s only Italy’.

[Banquo]

Reported in the Telegraph prior to his last injury that new coaching team view him as primarily a second row in their team.

he needs to reverse that weight loss and how his club see him then. I liked him at second row when he was there tho.

Not sure about the weight loss, this is the first I’ve heard of it. Our tight game- scrum & maul- was pretty beastly in the Ireland game last year when he moved forward after Ewels was s/o. Can’t imagine that he needs to be playing in the row for Saints to play there for England. Some players yes, Lawes not so much.

Fwiw I wouldn’t bring him in for Itoje, but he’ll be a motivating presence for the starters when he’s fit again.

Yep he lost quite a bit under Eddies instructions - - thought it was common knowledge. He could do with some time there experience notwithstanding- different fitness needed for sure.

[Banquo]

A Ribbans
B Agreed, to which I'd add my previous point about only bringing in JWillis and Watson at this point

Either way, my temptation isn't about improving the team for the 1-2 matches that Itoje is dropped, it's about giving one of the world's best players a reality check and attitude improvement.

Even without looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs a significant improvement on yesterday

so two tight head locks with a total of about 5 caps?. ok....
Personally no idea how one of our best and generally world class players would respond to a `kick up the ar5e'... may work, may not, but even then a team that needs quality, to some extent results to aid development, and a degree of continuity would be imo unnecessarily disrupted......
I'd be less inclined to publicly rebuke than to tell him what I want to see and give him a game or two to do so- assuming borthers is unhappy- given that was his first matchfor the new team.
esp when other areas need a big work on. Also- no change in midfield for you?

He reacted pretty well when Eddie gave him a kick up the arse.,

Lot younger, lot less experience under the belt, and that was before he’d been capped at all iirc. Think it’s a bit blunt and not needed tbh vs good coaching.

[Mikey Brown]

he needs to reverse that weight loss and how his club see him then. I liked him at second row when he was there tho.

Not sure about the weight loss, this is the first I’ve heard of it. Our tight game- scrum & maul- was pretty beastly in the Ireland game last year when he moved forward after Ewels was s/o. Can’t imagine that he needs to be playing in the row for Saints to play there for England. Some players yes, Lawes not so much.

Fwiw I wouldn’t bring him in for Itoje, but he’ll be a motivating presence for the starters when he’s fit again.

Yep he lost quite a bit under Eddies instructions - - thought it was common knowledge. He could do with some time there experience notwithstanding- different fitness needed for sure.

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

[p/d]

Definitely need to find more grunt in the second row. Ribbans has looked good in an England shirt.
Just watching the Ireland pack for the first 40 made me realise how powder puff we can look when not playing cohesive rugby. And if Porter hadn’t decided to be a penalty machine after the break they could have buried the Welsh

[Puja]

Was interested to read the England coaches saying Chessum's the lock that all the props want scrummaging behind them in camp. Obviously could be puff, but could also be that he's got good technique.

Puja

[p/d]

Was interested to read the England coaches saying Chessum's the lock that all the props want scrummaging behind them in camp. Obviously could be puff, but could also be that he's got good technique.

Puja

Not accusing Chessum of being ‘puff’ more the collective. Perhaps it was the pairing of Itoje and Kruis that was destructive, giving Itoje that better platform to shine. Now his ‘performance’ is under the microscope as that dynamic has shifted.

It could have a bearing on Jones’ persistence with Hill and Ewels

[Mikey Brown]

Was interested to read the England coaches saying Chessum's the lock that all the props want scrummaging behind them in camp. Obviously could be puff, but could also be that he's got good technique.

Puja

That’s good to hear. I’d started to think we were stuck with Hill.

Without any real way to know what’s going on there in the scrum it’s easy just to assume the mobile/flanker type locks generally aren’t the powerful scrummaging types.

[Epaminondas Pules]

so two tight head locks with a total of about 5 caps?. ok....
Personally no idea how one of our best and generally world class players would respond to a `kick up the ar5e'... may work, may not, but even then a team that needs quality, to some extent results to aid development, and a degree of continuity would be imo unnecessarily disrupted......
I'd be less inclined to publicly rebuke than to tell him what I want to see and give him a game or two to do so- assuming borthers is unhappy- given that was his first matchfor the new team.
esp when other areas need a big work on. Also- no change in midfield for you?

He reacted pretty well when Eddie gave him a kick up the arse.,

Lot younger, lot less experience under the belt, and that was before he’d been capped at all iirc. Think it’s a bit blunt and not needed tbh vs good coaching.

I think my faith in good coaching has taken too many blows in recent years

[Beasties]

Was interested to read the England coaches saying Chessum's the lock that all the props want scrummaging behind them in camp. Obviously could be puff, but could also be that he's got good technique.

Puja

Not accusing Chessum of being ‘puff’ more the collective. Perhaps it was the pairing of Itoje and Kruis that was destructive, giving Itoje that better platform to shine. Now his ‘performance’ is under the microscope as that dynamic has shifted.

It could have a bearing on Jones’ persistence with Hill and Ewels

The ability of a lock to push isn’t just down to kg. So interesting to hear Chessum punches above his weight. As above, happy for him and Ribbans to fight it out for the foreseeable.

[Oakboy]

Not sure about the weight loss, this is the first I’ve heard of it. Our tight game- scrum & maul- was pretty beastly in the Ireland game last year when he moved forward after Ewels was s/o. Can’t imagine that he needs to be playing in the row for Saints to play there for England. Some players yes, Lawes not so much.

Fwiw I wouldn’t bring him in for Itoje, but he’ll be a motivating presence for the starters when he’s fit again.

Yep he lost quite a bit under Eddies instructions - - thought it was common knowledge. He could do with some time there experience notwithstanding- different fitness needed for sure.

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

If I remember correctly, in the original Lawtoje experiment, Itoje scrummaged in the second row but at all other times played the back row role. That was the start of Lawes deciding his true position was 6, I'd guess. It is a smidge ironical that Ludlam took his chance so well in the shirt, including a few lineout takes

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

[Banquo]

Not sure about the weight loss, this is the first I’ve heard of it. Our tight game- scrum & maul- was pretty beastly in the Ireland game last year when he moved forward after Ewels was s/o. Can’t imagine that he needs to be playing in the row for Saints to play there for England. Some players yes, Lawes not so much.

Fwiw I wouldn’t bring him in for Itoje, but he’ll be a motivating presence for the starters when he’s fit again.

Yep he lost quite a bit under Eddies instructions - - thought it was common knowledge. He could do with some time there experience notwithstanding- different fitness needed for sure.

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

Aye- I'm a big fan of Lawes' play, and Ribbans. Its actually a nice problem to have in theory.

[Banquo]

Definitely need to find more grunt in the second row. Ribbans has looked good in an England shirt.
Just watching the Ireland pack for the first 40 made me realise how powder puff we can look when not playing cohesive rugby. And if Porter hadn’t decided to be a penalty machine after the break they could have buried the Welsh

Porter....what a nob he was.

The other thing is how much contribution their centres made/make.....ahem. I think its collective 'grunt' they have, thinking about it- common purpose and style and all that; have to say, I also thought Sexton was average- some very odd kicking from him in the middle part of the match.

[Banquo]

He reacted pretty well when Eddie gave him a kick up the arse.,

Lot younger, lot less experience under the belt, and that was before he’d been capped at all iirc. Think it’s a bit blunt and not needed tbh vs good coaching.

I think my faith in good coaching has taken too many blows in recent years

....dunno what you mean

[Scrumhead]

Yep he lost quite a bit under Eddies instructions - - thought it was common knowledge. He could do with some time there experience notwithstanding- different fitness needed for sure.

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

If I remember correctly, in the original Lawtoje experiment, Itoje scrummaged in the second row but at all other times played the back row role. That was the start of Lawes deciding his true position was 6, I'd guess. It is a smidge ironical that Ludlam took his chance so well in the shirt, including a few lineout takes

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

Launch is fit (barring a minor niggle here and there) and is playing in Japan. He’s eligible for selection a) as part of the special conditions for Wasps and Worcester players and b) because he’s signed for Quins for next season.

I’m not sure he’s the player he was, but I’m not against him being in the mix.

[p/d]

Definitely need to find more grunt in the second row. Ribbans has looked good in an England shirt.
Just watching the Ireland pack for the first 40 made me realise how powder puff we can look when not playing cohesive rugby. And if Porter hadn’t decided to be a penalty machine after the break they could have buried the Welsh

Porter....what a nob he was.

The other thing is how much contribution their centres made/make.....ahem. I think its collective 'grunt' they have, thinking about it- common purpose and style and all that; have to say, I also thought Sexton was average- some very odd kicking from him in the middle part of the match.

I think Sexton is a luxury they feel they can afford (which seems correct), then they have Ringrose punching above his weight, steady rock at 12 and an outstanding FB supported by the Cheeky girls out wide.

As you said earlier, our backs don't put the fear into anyone...... as a collective

[p/d]

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

Not questioning him as a player, but is he a good leader?

[Banquo]

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

If I remember correctly, in the original Lawtoje experiment, Itoje scrummaged in the second row but at all other times played the back row role. That was the start of Lawes deciding his true position was 6, I'd guess. It is a smidge ironical that Ludlam took his chance so well in the shirt, including a few lineout takes

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

Launch is fit (barring a minor niggle here and there) and is playing in Japan. He’s eligible for selection a) as part of the special conditions for Wasps and Worcester players and b) because he’s signed for Quins for next season.

I’m not sure he’s the player he was, but I’m not against him being in the mix.

Weakens the lineout and don’t talk about restarts! He’s a good partner for Itoje, but take Itoje out and you lose a lot, even if I bought into the sub par stuff.

[Oakboy]

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

Not questioning him as a player, but is he a good leader?

I think in the sense that he inspires his fellow forwards, yes.

[Banquo]

quite funny to be arguing about locks (and even wings) when the issues were much more manifest elsewhere. Hardly struggled for possession (and good possession quite a lot of the time) nor territory. The humungeous issues were defence including poor tackling, volume and poor quality of kicking (esp in attack), utter lack of any useful go forward from midfield, decision making in attack, well iffy handling at key moments, and discipline. Under the microscope for me is 8,9,10,12 each with individual and unit areas to work on- newish units, so probably should be given a chance-- the second Malins did kind of show what the principles behind selection and play were, and it was a skilled piece of interplay, not easy to pull off at all.

[Mikey Brown]

Yep he lost quite a bit under Eddies instructions - - thought it was common knowledge. He could do with some time there experience notwithstanding- different fitness needed for sure.

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

If I remember correctly, in the original Lawtoje experiment, Itoje scrummaged in the second row but at all other times played the back row role. That was the start of Lawes deciding his true position was 6, I'd guess. It is a smidge ironical that Ludlam took his chance so well in the shirt, including a few lineout takes

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

The irony of Ludlam (a flanker) playing well at flanker is completely lost on me.

I like the idea of Launchbury coming back, in theory, but I feel like England days are done, sadly,

[Banquo]

Yeah, "some players, but not Lawes" isn't really much of an argument. It's been mentioned quite bluntly by both him and Eddie, he hates scrummaging at lock and lost weight (that he finds very difficult to keep on) in order to stay mobile and play 6 full time at Saints and with England.

He did do well there against Ireland to be fair. I'd put a lot of that pack performance down to old galvanising red card effect. I'd like to think he can though, because he and Itoje together would add so many positive qualities to the pack (and allow more of the great flankers to get a shot) but I still think they are both best paired with a heftier, tight-head lock if playing there. Most of us seem to think that could be Ribbans, but not really seen enough of him.

If I remember correctly, in the original Lawtoje experiment, Itoje scrummaged in the second row but at all other times played the back row role. That was the start of Lawes deciding his true position was 6, I'd guess. It is a smidge ironical that Ludlam took his chance so well in the shirt, including a few lineout takes

As for the long-term second row selection, I think SB needs to challenge Itoje to get back to game-affecting performances or face being dropped. If Launchbury was fit and playing regular club stuff he would be the best short-term answer. His presence would transform our maul, for example, and his leadership is exactly what the pack needs at present without Lawes being there.

The irony of Ludlam (a flanker) playing well at flanker is completely lost on me.

I like the idea of Launchbury coming back, in theory, but I feel like England days are done, sadly,

...as in he's taken his team mate's shirt well, his team mate having actively switched position to take a 6's slot in the first place? is my guess.