New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Banquo]

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

OHC has played and imo struggled (albeit in a poor team), Freeman was outstanding in Oz (and mysterious why Splendid Braveman hasn't seen fit to stick him in a match day squad yet -iirc), Murley has been in lots of squads. TBH I don't think our presenting issue is not selecting or embracing talented and quick wingers.

Sorting the pack is def. the priority. But I'd also like to see wingers with the most potential being picked. IMHO that hasn't been happening.

I don't really agree. The one slightly hard done by player is Freeman. And you only pick players with 'potential' if there is no-one playing better tbh.

(that said, I wouldn't touch Malins with Mells' bargepole)

[Scrumhead]

To be fair to Borthwick, I don’t think it was overly realistic to think he was going to pick two inexperienced wingers in the same starting XV. It was always likely to be a case of picking one of OHC, Murley or Arundell and hoping they made a really compelling case to stay there.

I don’t have an issue with OHC being dropped. I didn’t think Watson should have been the one to replace him immediately after returning from injury. Personally, I would have liked Murley to have got a go, but in the circumstances, I can see why Borthwick went with Watson.

[FKAS]

OHC has played and imo struggled (albeit in a poor team), Freeman was outstanding in Oz (and mysterious why Splendid Braveman hasn't seen fit to stick him in a match day squad yet -iirc), Murley has been in lots of squads. TBH I don't think our presenting issue is not selecting or embracing talented and quick wingers.

Sorting the pack is def. the priority. But I'd also like to see wingers with the most potential being picked. IMHO that hasn't been happening.

I don't really agree. The one slightly hard done by player is Freeman. And you only pick players with 'potential' if there is no-one playing better tbh.

(that said, I wouldn't touch Malins with Mells' bargepole)

I'm a fan of Freeman and would have him in the 23 but I think you're overselling it slightly to say he was outstanding in Australia, he was good but not his free flowing best.

A Freeman, Watson, Steward back three would add a lot in terms of attacking threat but would lack a playmaker though we didn't use the one we had last time out. Ford/Kelly/Steward worked at Tigers I'd like to see that given a go with Lawrence at 13. Would mean dropping the Ice Man.

[Which Tyler]

Ford/Kelly/Steward worked at Tigers I'd like to see that given a go with Lawrence at 13.

Would mean dropping the Ice Man.

[padprop]

Us: ENGLISH COACHES DONT PICK EXCITING PLAYERS

Coach: picks Smith, Simmonds, Hassell-Collins, JVP, Lawrence, Arundell and Malins early in their career who go on to have on the whole mixed performances and none of which own the shirt

Us: BUT RADWAN

Feel we so easily forget how many messiahs have been tried and failed to make an impact. We just go onto the next one and blame coaching staff for not starting the next messiah inside of just reflecting that our overall squad isn’t good enough. We havent produced a dominant Under 20s squad in years. 2019 was probably the best we have been since 2003 and alot of those players have gone backwards (Vunipola x 2, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Youngs, May). I don’t think we have better alternatives to those players at their peak.

[Banquo]

just reflecting that our overall squad isn’t good enough. We havent produced a dominant Under 20s squad in years. 2019 was probably the best we have been since 2003 and alot of those players have gone backwards (Vunipola x 2, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Youngs, May). I don’t think we have better alternatives to those players at their peak.

Been saying this on and off for years.

[FKAS]

What was the year we had the Mallinder, Williams, Marchant midfield? That was a decent under 20s team.

IIRC 2013 was a good team but individuals wise things didn't seem to work out for a lot of those guys.

[Banquo]

Sorting the pack is def. the priority. But I'd also like to see wingers with the most potential being picked. IMHO that hasn't been happening.

I don't really agree. The one slightly hard done by player is Freeman. And you only pick players with 'potential' if there is no-one playing better tbh.

(that said, I wouldn't touch Malins with Mells' bargepole)

I'm a fan of Freeman and would have him in the 23 but I think you're overselling it slightly to say he was outstanding in Australia, he was good but not his free flowing best.

A Freeman, Watson, Steward back three would add a lot in terms of attacking threat but would lack a playmaker though we didn't use the one we had last time out. Ford/Kelly/Steward worked at Tigers I'd like to see that given a go with Lawrence at 13. Would mean dropping the Ice Man.

Slightly oversold probably, but he was pretty good on debut and very good in the 3rd test. 'free flowing best' in that backline would have been quite a challenge, even if I knew what that meant.

Happy dropping the iceman, and a playmaker in the back three ain't mandatory.

[Oakboy]

just reflecting that our overall squad isn’t good enough. We havent produced a dominant Under 20s squad in years. 2019 was probably the best we have been since 2003 and alot of those players have gone backwards (Vunipola x 2, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Youngs, May). I don’t think we have better alternatives to those players at their peak.

Been saying this on and off for years.

Selection debates on new players are inevitable:

1. Which one (from how many?)?
2. How many games is a fair test?
3. In or out of best position?
4. Other changes to give best chance? (e.g. any new 9,10 or 13 trying to play with Farrell at 12).
Etc. Etc.

Basically, is it not always down to the head coach guessing?

The only factor that might be worth reconsidering, IMO, is the reserve team international route (Saxons or whatever). Taking a player out of his club comfort zone and looking for the guy who ends up being more effective at international level than club level can be aided by lower grade international stuff. It still might be the best way to get age grade stars up to scratch. It can also be useful in giving a guide to who NOT to pick.

[Banquo]

just reflecting that our overall squad isn’t good enough. We havent produced a dominant Under 20s squad in years. 2019 was probably the best we have been since 2003 and alot of those players have gone backwards (Vunipola x 2, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Youngs, May). I don’t think we have better alternatives to those players at their peak.

Been saying this on and off for years.

Selection debates on new players are inevitable:

Absolutely not the point I or Padprop were making. Its the pool we are selecting from that's the issue (and coaching tbh). It is complicated by some mysterous selecting from time to time its true, but we aren't producing enough top notch players.

[Puja]

Jack Nowell declares himself unavailable for the RWC (almost certainly ending his international career): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65685320

I'm not disappointed from an England perspective as I think we can do better currently, but I think he has been perennially undervalued by England supporters. He lacked some traditional winger strengths, like being very fast, but he made ground in ridiculous ways. A traditional speedster might've finished tries that Nowell couldn't by burning people on the outside, but Nowell finished tries and made ground that no-one else could by being so ridiculously hard to stop in contact. Fair play to him for deciding not to flog himself through a summer that'd likely end in disappointment, given Suella Bravermann had already dropped him once, and good luck in France.

Puja

[Banquo]

Jack Nowell declares himself unavailable for the RWC (almost certainly ending his international career): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65685320

I'm not disappointed from an England perspective as I think we can do better currently, but I think he has been perennially undervalued by England supporters. He lacked some traditional winger strengths, like being very fast, but he made ground in ridiculous ways. A traditional speedster might've finished tries that Nowell couldn't by burning people on the outside, but Nowell finished tries and made ground that no-one else could by being so ridiculously hard to stop in contact. Fair play to him for deciding not to flog himself through a summer that'd likely end in disappointment, given Suella Bravermann had already dropped him once, and good luck in France.

Puja

I take the opposite view- I think he's been lucky to have got got so many caps especially with his injury record. Top club player, moderate intl, especially in defence, tho his scoring rate is also low-ish.

[stepsider]

Us: ENGLISH COACHES DONT PICK EXCITING PLAYERS

Coach: picks Smith, Simmonds, Hassell-Collins, JVP, Lawrence, Arundell and Malins early in their career who go on to have on the whole mixed performances and none of which own the shirt

Us: BUT RADWAN

Feel we so easily forget how many messiahs have been tried and failed to make an impact. We just go onto the next one and blame coaching staff for not starting the next messiah inside of just reflecting that our overall squad isn’t good enough. We havent produced a dominant Under 20s squad in years. 2019 was probably the best we have been since 2003 and alot of those players have gone backwards (Vunipola x 2, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Youngs, May). I don’t think we have better alternatives to those players at their peak.

The former list could prove world class if they were picked as many times as Youngs + Farrell.

Not looking for Messiahs, just consistency of selection and giving decent chances to younger players who are selected.

[Stom]

Jack Nowell declares himself unavailable for the RWC (almost certainly ending his international career): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65685320

I'm not disappointed from an England perspective as I think we can do better currently, but I think he has been perennially undervalued by England supporters. He lacked some traditional winger strengths, like being very fast, but he made ground in ridiculous ways. A traditional speedster might've finished tries that Nowell couldn't by burning people on the outside, but Nowell finished tries and made ground that no-one else could by being so ridiculously hard to stop in contact. Fair play to him for deciding not to flog himself through a summer that'd likely end in disappointment, given Suella Bravermann had already dropped him once, and good luck in France.

Puja

I take the opposite view- I think he's been lucky to have got got so many caps especially with his injury record. Top club player, moderate intl, especially in defence, tho his scoring rate is also low-ish.

I agree. Worked hard, couldn't hack it in defence against top quality opponents. Lacked the pace to finish moves against top quality defences. Meh.

[Margin_Walker]

I was a big Nowell fan from his time in the U20s into his first 3 or 4 years of international rugby. Not the quickest, but strong and elusive enough to be very effective.

Wings can often have relatively short international shelf lives though as there's always a bright young thing coming along. With Nowell, there was definitely a sense that he was retained past the point at which he really should have been

[Mikey Brown]

Still feels like he should have been a fullback, but was just too poor a defender maybe?

[Banquo]

very effective.

At int level?

[Margin_Walker]

very effective.

At int level?

Yeah, sure at the start. He was a busy, elusive wing, who wasn't going to run them in from half way, but was pretty hard to stop in the red zone. Fairly productive too. His overall record was impacted by only scoring 2 tries in 22 games international career from 2018, when he'd tailed off a bit and there were better options available.

[Mr Mwenda]

The Cueto effect, sadly.

[fivepointer]

very effective.

At int level?

Yeah, sure at the start. He was a busy, elusive wing, who wasn't going to run them in from half way, but was pretty hard to stop in the red zone. Fairly productive too. His overall record was impacted by only scoring 2 tries in 22 games international career from 2018, when he'd tailed off a bit and there were better options available.

Always liked him. Nuggety, determined, with a priceless ability to beat the first man and make more ground than he had a right to. Not averse to getting stuck into breakdowns or to go infield looking for work. Sure there were limitations but he played well for England a lot more times than he played poorly.

[Mellsblue]

Nowell is the Farrell of wingers, for me. Loads of attributes but not many that are at the top of the list of what I want in a winger.

[Tom Moore]

Nowell is the Farrell of wingers, for me. Loads of attributes but not many that are at the top of the list of what I want in a winger.

Agree. Better passer though.

[Banquo]

very effective.

At int level?

Yeah, sure at the start. He was a busy, elusive wing, who wasn't going to run them in from half way, but was pretty hard to stop in the red zone. Fairly productive too. His overall record was impacted by only scoring 2 tries in 22 games international career from 2018, when he'd tailed off a bit and there were better options available.

Not sure I agree. His business often resulted in nought and his defence one on one was plain poor. Great in an Exeter shirt.

[Banquo]

At int level?

Yeah, sure at the start. He was a busy, elusive wing, who wasn't going to run them in from half way, but was pretty hard to stop in the red zone. Fairly productive too. His overall record was impacted by only scoring 2 tries in 22 games international career from 2018, when he'd tailed off a bit and there were better options available.

Always liked him. Nuggety, determined, with a priceless ability to beat the first man and make more ground than he had a right to. Not averse to getting stuck into breakdowns or to go infield looking for work. Sure there were limitations but he played well for England a lot more times than he played poorly.

Great for Exeter, but outcomes for England negligible, and for me his defence was always too shaky.

[Banquo]

The Cueto effect, sadly.

another very good club winger who was lucky to get so many intl caps.