Quarter final - France v South Africa

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Which Tyler
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by Which Tyler »

bruce wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:07 pmPretty sure it wasn't forward.
TBH, the point isn't necessarily whether it was forwards or backwards (same with Kolbe - was he moving on a head nod vs a foot lift. IMO the knock on was a deliberate knock on that almost certainly prevented a try, so it's penalty => penalty try => yellow card. However, we've only been shown the live angles, which are from a poor camera angle to judge by; and Kolbe knowing Ramos' routine intimately well, and going on the first first muscle twitch) - it's that it was such an important intervention, and with enough doubt, that they should have been checked.

Ultimately, it wasn't those 2 events that cost France the match - the first was too early, with too many butterfly effects, and the second was a 2-point swing. Where it was lost on the reffing was the breakdown. France kept on breaking the line, and making metres, with support there immediately, but having to fight to get illegal hands and bodies out of the way.
Which, apparently, is how O'Keefe likes to ref the matches - so it wasn't bias, it was 1 team having done their homework on the ref better.


As with the "biased against tier 2" narratives, I think the closest you can get to bias from ref.s is teams being better at adapting their play to the ref - which is a skill, and one I'm happy to accept that some teams are better than others at. England, for example, are historically terrible at it; but probably better than just about any tier 2 country, purely through having greater access to the world class referees - both for club and country.

Cheating is the longest, and proudest tradition in rugby - hell the game was invented by someone cheating at football!
"It's only illegal if the ref notices" has been a cry in rugby for longer than I've been watching the game (40-odd years).

Tonnes is missed by ref.s, because every player is cheating just as much as they think they can get away with. Generally, these things even out - it's the clear and obvious mistakes (and warnings given, but ignored) that grate on the nerves, but even then, if the ref is consistently making that same mistake, then it's your job as a player to exploit that.
And it always feels unfair to the team who fails to adapt.

ETA: I should also add the language barrier - with more matey ref.s who are warning and coaching players, rather than blowing the whistle and then explaining - if there's a language barrier between the ref and the player, then there's a delay in the instruction being registered, and a slower-to-respond player is more likely to get the whistle blown against them. That goes for not understanding the instruction and for not understanding who the ref is speaking to. I'd say this is also a problem increased when the player feels they're in the right - you still have to obey the ref, but you also have to know that the ref disagrees with you.
Cameo
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by Cameo »

newgalesurf wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:14 pm
bruce wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:07 pm
Danno wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:03 pm

Pretty livid about that, because it was not backwards.
Pretty sure it wasn't forward.
To me this rule needs to be changed. There was no attempt to catch the ball. Was only going to be one outcome (and not as if he tried to shovel it backwards). The deliberate knock-on should be changed to a deliberate knock down. Forward or backwards is irrelevant, it stopped an attacking movement and probably a try.
Since when did you have to try and catch the ball. You want endless debates about the difference between a knock down and a flick down towards a team mate? I also don't think you want to make going for an intercept harder.

It was borderline but I didn't think it was forward and was glad they didn't spend ages looking at it and still coming to a controversial decision.

Also, what about Willemse calling a scrum from a mark. SA do like to mix things up don't they. And it paid off with a penalty.
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canta_brian
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by canta_brian »

Which Tyler wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:04 pm
bruce wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:07 pmPretty sure it wasn't forward.
TBH, the point isn't necessarily whether it was forwards or backwards (same with Kolbe - was he moving on a head nod vs a foot lift. IMO the knock on was a deliberate knock on that almost certainly prevented a try, so it's penalty => penalty try => yellow card. However, we've only been shown the live angles, which are from a poor camera angle to judge by; and Kolbe knowing Ramos' routine intimately well, and going on the first first muscle twitch) - it's that it was such an important intervention, and with enough doubt, that they should have been checked.

Ultimately, it wasn't those 2 events that cost France the match - the first was too early, with too many butterfly effects, and the second was a 2-point swing. Where it was lost on the reffing was the breakdown. France kept on breaking the line, and making metres, with support there immediately, but having to fight to get illegal hands and bodies out of the way.
Which, apparently, is how O'Keefe likes to ref the matches - so it wasn't bias, it was 1 team having done their homework on the ref better.


As with the "biased against tier 2" narratives, I think the closest you can get to bias from ref.s is teams being better at adapting their play to the ref - which is a skill, and one I'm happy to accept that some teams are better than others at. England, for example, are historically terrible at it; but probably better than just about any tier 2 country, purely through having greater access to the world class referees - both for club and country.

Cheating is the longest, and proudest tradition in rugby - hell the game was invented by someone cheating at football!
"It's only illegal if the ref notices" has been a cry in rugby for longer than I've been watching the game (40-odd years).

Tonnes is missed by ref.s, because every player is cheating just as much as they think they can get away with. Generally, these things even out - it's the clear and obvious mistakes (and warnings given, but ignored) that grate on the nerves, but even then, if the ref is consistently making that same mistake, then it's your job as a player to exploit that.
And it always feels unfair to the team who fails to adapt.

ETA: I should also add the language barrier - with more matey ref.s who are warning and coaching players, rather than blowing the whistle and then explaining - if there's a language barrier between the ref and the player, then there's a delay in the instruction being registered, and a slower-to-respond player is more likely to get the whistle blown against them. That goes for not understanding the instruction and for not understanding who the ref is speaking to. I'd say this is also a problem increased when the player feels they're in the right - you still have to obey the ref, but you also have to know that the ref disagrees with you.
O’Keefe does seem to have picked up the mantle put down by Nigel Owens. I do think that “competition at the breakdown” needs to be balanced with just a little protection for the team in possession. There seems to be far more attention given to having the tackled player release the ball than is given to the tackler allowing that to happen.

The defensive tactic now appears to be to allow half-breaks to the opposition and then isolate the player who has made the break. Doesn’t make for a great match. SA certainly didn’t risk the same happening to the as they just hoisted up and unders. That every bounce of the ball or dropped catch went their way only encourages what is a fairly dull tactic.
newgalesurf
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by newgalesurf »

Cameo wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:19 am
newgalesurf wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:14 pm
bruce wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:07 pm
Pretty sure it wasn't forward.
To me this rule needs to be changed. There was no attempt to catch the ball. Was only going to be one outcome (and not as if he tried to shovel it backwards). The deliberate knock-on should be changed to a deliberate knock down. Forward or backwards is irrelevant, it stopped an attacking movement and probably a try.
Since when did you have to try and catch the ball. You want endless debates about the difference between a knock down and a flick down towards a team mate? I also don't think you want to make going for an intercept harder.

It was borderline but I didn't think it was forward and was glad they didn't spend ages looking at it and still coming to a controversial decision.

Also, what about Willemse calling a scrum from a mark. SA do like to mix things up don't they. And it paid off with a penalty.
That scrum was a great call. Got the result.

Every video review for a deliberate knock-on, the ref asks if an attempt to catch the ball was made so they obviously look for it. This looked cynical to me as there was no way he would catch it (although a 2nd look and it was closer than I first remembered but still). any time you reach out one hand you run the risk of a deliberate knock on. At least make it look like a catch attempt
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by Donny osmond »

Which Tyler wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:04 pm
bruce wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:07 pmPretty sure it wasn't forward.
TBH, the point isn't necessarily whether it was forwards or backwards (same with Kolbe - was he moving on a head nod vs a foot lift. IMO the knock on was a deliberate knock on that almost certainly prevented a try, so it's penalty => penalty try => yellow card. However, we've only been shown the live angles, which are from a poor camera angle to judge by; and Kolbe knowing Ramos' routine intimately well, and going on the first first muscle twitch) - it's that it was such an important intervention, and with enough doubt, that they should have been checked.

Ultimately, it wasn't those 2 events that cost France the match - the first was too early, with too many butterfly effects, and the second was a 2-point swing. Where it was lost on the reffing was the breakdown. France kept on breaking the line, and making metres, with support there immediately, but having to fight to get illegal hands and bodies out of the way.
Which, apparently, is how O'Keefe likes to ref the matches - so it wasn't bias, it was 1 team having done their homework on the ref better.


As with the "biased against tier 2" narratives, I think the closest you can get to bias from ref.s is teams being better at adapting their play to the ref - which is a skill, and one I'm happy to accept that some teams are better than others at. England, for example, are historically terrible at it; but probably better than just about any tier 2 country, purely through having greater access to the world class referees - both for club and country.

Cheating is the longest, and proudest tradition in rugby - hell the game was invented by someone cheating at football!
"It's only illegal if the ref notices" has been a cry in rugby for longer than I've been watching the game (40-odd years).

Tonnes is missed by ref.s, because every player is cheating just as much as they think they can get away with. Generally, these things even out - it's the clear and obvious mistakes (and warnings given, but ignored) that grate on the nerves, but even then, if the ref is consistently making that same mistake, then it's your job as a player to exploit that.
And it always feels unfair to the team who fails to adapt.

ETA: I should also add the language barrier - with more matey ref.s who are warning and coaching players, rather than blowing the whistle and then explaining - if there's a language barrier between the ref and the player, then there's a delay in the instruction being registered, and a slower-to-respond player is more likely to get the whistle blown against them. That goes for not understanding the instruction and for not understanding who the ref is speaking to. I'd say this is also a problem increased when the player feels they're in the right - you still have to obey the ref, but you also have to know that the ref disagrees with you.
If cheating is part and parcel of the game, then we shouldn't really have any TMO at all?

I do feel like rugby is stuck in an unhappy situation; either have a video ref/TMO and use them to ensure the guys putting their bodies on the line aren't being treated unfairly; or have just 1 ref out in the middle doing their best and everyone gets a good chuckle at how much the players have hoodwinked them.

What we currently have is a sort of po faced pretence at using technology to ensure the laws are applied that is really only serving to highlight how much everyone is cheating and getting away with.

Fwiw I agree with you interpretation about those two incidents
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Cameo
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by Cameo »

newgalesurf wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:23 pm
Cameo wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:19 am
newgalesurf wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:14 pm

To me this rule needs to be changed. There was no attempt to catch the ball. Was only going to be one outcome (and not as if he tried to shovel it backwards). The deliberate knock-on should be changed to a deliberate knock down. Forward or backwards is irrelevant, it stopped an attacking movement and probably a try.
Since when did you have to try and catch the ball. You want endless debates about the difference between a knock down and a flick down towards a team mate? I also don't think you want to make going for an intercept harder.

It was borderline but I didn't think it was forward and was glad they didn't spend ages looking at it and still coming to a controversial decision.

Also, what about Willemse calling a scrum from a mark. SA do like to mix things up don't they. And it paid off with a penalty.
Every video review for a deliberate knock-on, the ref asks if an attempt to catch the ball was made so they obviously look for it.
Sorry, maybe phrased it wrong, I meant in general. If you knock on, I fully accept that it's important if you didn't try and catch it. It's just not relevant if you don't knock and and I don't think it should be. Otherwise you are opening a whole can of worms. Can you flick a ball on to a team mate without trying to catch it, what if you are half attempting to do that but your priority is to stop it getting to an opponent. Every second high ball would be a penalty as people try and flap it back. Let's not even think about line-out time.
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by J Dory »

I think reffing has improved, this is the first world cup I can remember (so far) where the reffing is not the hot topic on this website. Will always be mistakes, contention etc. I'm even warming to Wayne Barnes (yes I said it). Easy to say when the team I support just won a semi. But has there been improvement? Maybe?
Cameo
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by Cameo »

J Dory wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:53 pm I think reffing has improved, this is the first world cup I can remember (so far) where the reffing is not the hot topic on this website. Will always be mistakes, contention etc. I'm even warming to Wayne Barnes (yes I said it). Easy to say when the team I support just won a semi. But has there been improvement? Maybe?
I think the bunker system has taken some of the contentious decisions out their hands. It helps that we don't all spend five minutes watching them make a difficult decision and then rage about it.

I agree, though, it's been pretty good.
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Which Tyler
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by Which Tyler »

Cameo wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:47 am
J Dory wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:53 pm I think reffing has improved, this is the first world cup I can remember (so far) where the reffing is not the hot topic on this website. Will always be mistakes, contention etc. I'm even warming to Wayne Barnes (yes I said it). Easy to say when the team I support just won a semi. But has there been improvement? Maybe?
I think the bunker system has taken some of the contentious decisions out their hands. It helps that we don't all spend five minutes watching them make a difficult decision and then rage about it.

I agree, though, it's been pretty good.
Add in WR refusing to allow replays - either at the time, or for clips to be available afterwards - which is VERY limiting on discussing ref decisions (by design)

I'd also say that there's been plenty of controversy around ref decisions - for me, it's more that discussion doesn't last too long, because we can't get the clips, or different camera angles to illustrate arguments.
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Re: Quarter final - France v South Africa

Post by monkey »

Which Tyler wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:45 am
Cameo wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:47 am
J Dory wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:53 pm I think reffing has improved, this is the first world cup I can remember (so far) where the reffing is not the hot topic on this website. Will always be mistakes, contention etc. I'm even warming to Wayne Barnes (yes I said it). Easy to say when the team I support just won a semi. But has there been improvement? Maybe?
I think the bunker system has taken some of the contentious decisions out their hands. It helps that we don't all spend five minutes watching them make a difficult decision and then rage about it.

I agree, though, it's been pretty good.
Add in WR refusing to allow replays - either at the time, or for clips to be available afterwards - which is VERY limiting on discussing ref decisions (by design)

I'd also say that there's been plenty of controversy around ref decisions - for me, it's more that discussion doesn't last too long, because we can't get the clips, or different camera angles to illustrate arguments.
yup
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