RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:41 pm Is Smith at FB a viable long term option? Quins wont play him there and i'm pretty sure he sees himself as a 10. I could see the point in putting him there for the Fiji game but that was surely a one off. Also, Steward isnt going to move to the wing so why waste him there?
Just seems a pointless selection with no long term advantages and possibly a short term disadvantage.
Meanwhile Lawrence is on the bench again so denied a chance to start a game that he is long overdue to do.

Skalyba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:24 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:41 pm Is Smith at FB a viable long term option? Quins wont play him there and i'm pretty sure he sees himself as a 10. I could see the point in putting him there for the Fiji game but that was surely a one off. Also, Steward isnt going to move to the wing so why waste him there?
Just seems a pointless selection with no long term advantages and possibly a short term disadvantage.
Meanwhile Lawrence is on the bench again so denied a chance to start a game that he is long overdue to do.

I disagree and think England may look to use Smith similar to how NZ use Mckenzie over the next couple of years. Whatever we say Farrel and likely Ford aren't going anywhere in a hurry, having him cover both 10 & 15 from the bench give versatility to the overall gameplan

Skalyba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:24 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:41 pm Is Smith at FB a viable long term option? Quins wont play him there and i'm pretty sure he sees himself as a 10. I could see the point in putting him there for the Fiji game but that was surely a one off. Also, Steward isnt going to move to the wing so why waste him there?
Just seems a pointless selection with no long term advantages and possibly a short term disadvantage.
Meanwhile Lawrence is on the bench again so denied a chance to start a game that he is long overdue to do.

I disagree and think England may look to use Smith similar to how NZ use Mckenzie over the next couple of years. Whatever we say Farrel and likely Ford aren't going anywhere in a hurry, having him cover both 10 & 15 from the bench give versatility to the overall gameplan

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:37 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:24 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:41 pm Is Smith at FB a viable long term option? Quins wont play him there and i'm pretty sure he sees himself as a 10. I could see the point in putting him there for the Fiji game but that was surely a one off. Also, Steward isnt going to move to the wing so why waste him there?
Just seems a pointless selection with no long term advantages and possibly a short term disadvantage.
Meanwhile Lawrence is on the bench again so denied a chance to start a game that he is long overdue to do.

I disagree and think England may look to use Smith similar to how NZ use Mckenzie over the next couple of years. Whatever we say Farrel and likely Ford aren't going anywhere in a hurry, having him cover both 10 & 15 from the bench give versatility to the overall gameplan

Would any other country but England pick Farrell or Ford as first choice 10 (or 12) leaving Smith on the bench at this point? We need to develop 9,10, 12, 13 as a starting phase. Smith and Lawrence both need to be part of that straight away. There are plenty of options at 15 that need developing too without wasting any of Smith's time in the shirt.

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:37 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:24 am

I disagree and think England may look to use Smith similar to how NZ use Mckenzie over the next couple of years. Whatever we say Farrel and likely Ford aren't going anywhere in a hurry, having him cover both 10 & 15 from the bench give versatility to the overall gameplan

Would any other country but England pick Farrell or Ford as first choice 10 (or 12) leaving Smith on the bench at this point? We need to develop 9,10, 12, 13 as a starting phase. Smith and Lawrence both need to be part of that straight away. There are plenty of options at 15 that need developing too without wasting any of Smith's time in the shirt.

I'm pretty sure nearly every other country would LOVE to have George Ford in their FH slot.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:09 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:24 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:41 pm Is Smith at FB a viable long term option? Quins wont play him there and i'm pretty sure he sees himself as a 10. I could see the point in putting him there for the Fiji game but that was surely a one off. Also, Steward isnt going to move to the wing so why waste him there?
Just seems a pointless selection with no long term advantages and possibly a short term disadvantage.
Meanwhile Lawrence is on the bench again so denied a chance to start a game that he is long overdue to do.

I disagree and think England may look to use Smith similar to how NZ use Mckenzie over the next couple of years. Whatever we say Farrel and likely Ford aren't going anywhere in a hurry, having him cover both 10 & 15 from the bench give versatility to the overall gameplan

McKenzie has a lot of starting games at 15 under his belt for club, province and country (more starts there than at 10), but also plays 10 regularly... that's a crucial difference, like Barrett B. Covering 15 is sort of all right ish- until he has to come on after 5 mins against Ireland say (Smiths only starts at 15 have been for england in this RWC).

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:16 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:09 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:24 am

I disagree and think England may look to use Smith similar to how NZ use Mckenzie over the next couple of years. Whatever we say Farrel and likely Ford aren't going anywhere in a hurry, having him cover both 10 & 15 from the bench give versatility to the overall gameplan

McKenzie has a lot of starting games at 15 under his belt for club, province and country (more starts there than at 10), but also plays 10 regularly... that's a crucial difference, like Barrett B. Covering 15 is sort of all right ish- until he has to come on after 5 mins against Ireland say (Smiths only starts at 15 have been for england in this RWC).

And yet you're complaining about him being given more experience by playing 15 in this match? Surely this experience is helping to reduce the damage if he has to come on after 5 minutes against Ireland?

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:43 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:16 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:09 am
McKenzie has a lot of starting games at 15 under his belt for club, province and country (more starts there than at 10), but also plays 10 regularly... that's a crucial difference, like Barrett B. Covering 15 is sort of all right ish- until he has to come on after 5 mins against Ireland say (Smiths only starts at 15 have been for england in this RWC).

And yet you're complaining about him being given more experience by playing 15 in this match? Surely this experience is helping to reduce the damage if he has to come on after 5 minutes against Ireland?

Puja

Point is quite straightforward- the examples used are clearly of players who have cut their teeth positionally at 15 over a period of time. That's what Smith needs to do....and I can't see it happening at Quins, so this seems a pointless use of what should be useful game time to start to build a new backline. If silly bollocks wants Smith to be a starting 15, and Steward to be a wing a- he's nuts, and b- he then needs to be ensuring this then sticks at club level.

Giving him 80 mins exposure sounds lovely, but how will it be sustained to the 10's of hours of game time he'll really need to start to cut the mustard at 15, even assuming he can. I'm also not just complaining about this, but about the overall stupidity of the back three selection (partly caused by slightly boneheaded original back three choices). If you are going to give someone exposure at this level, why not Arundell?

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:24 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:43 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:16 am

And yet you're complaining about him being given more experience by playing 15 in this match? Surely this experience is helping to reduce the damage if he has to come on after 5 minutes against Ireland?

Puja

Point is quite straightforward- the examples used are clearly of players who have cut their teeth positionally at 15 over a period of time. That's what Smith needs to do....and I can't see it happening at Quins, so this seems a pointless use of what should be useful game time to start to build a new backline. If silly bollocks wants Smith to be a starting 15, and Steward to be a wing a- he's nuts, and b- he then needs to be ensuring this then sticks at club level.

Giving him 80 mins exposure sounds lovely, but how will it be sustained to the 10's of hours of game time he'll really need to start to cut the mustard at 15, even assuming he can. I'm also not just complaining about this, but about the overall stupidity of the back three selection (partly caused by slightly boneheaded original back three choices). If you are going to give someone exposure at this level, why not Arundell?

I just don't have any real objection to a young player developing another string to his bow and being able to cover more positions. I don't think this is going to be something used as a regular ongoing selection, but it's good that he can do that if needs be.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:15 am

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:37 am

Would any other country but England pick Farrell or Ford as first choice 10 (or 12) leaving Smith on the bench at this point? We need to develop 9,10, 12, 13 as a starting phase. Smith and Lawrence both need to be part of that straight away. There are plenty of options at 15 that need developing too without wasting any of Smith's time in the shirt.

I'm pretty sure nearly every other country would LOVE to have George Ford in their FH slot.

Absolutely. I'm not quite sure how he went from acknowledged MOTM v Argentina, guiding us to a win with 14 players to being somehow not very good (also in silly billy's mind). Stick him in the French team, for example, he'd look an absolute genius.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:01 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:15 am

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:10 am

I'm pretty sure nearly every other country would LOVE to have George Ford in their FH slot.

Absolutely. I'm not quite sure how he went from acknowledged MOTM v Argentina, guiding us to a win with 14 players to being somehow not very good (also in silly billy's mind). Stick him in the French team, for example, he'd look an absolute genius.

the presence of O'Farrell.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:43 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:01 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:15 am
Absolutely. I'm not quite sure how he went from acknowledged MOTM v Argentina, guiding us to a win with 14 players to being somehow not very good (also in silly billy's mind). Stick him in the French team, for example, he'd look an absolute genius.

the presence of O'Farrell.

How i wish you'd adopted him

I agree on Ford- he's a fantastic player, like Hodgson before him, under sung....but at least Hodgson was behind a genuinely world class player.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:42 pm Smith is a FH. That's where he should be playing tonight and, if he continues to improve, the next four years +.

astralweeks wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:56 pm Heavy showers tonight in Paris so we can probably expect more of the same as last week. I think Argentina are going to be even less interested than our team in this game which I am expecting us to win. Can't decide whether to have Stewart or Dan as my 1st try scorer.

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:05 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:42 pm Smith is a FH. That's where he should be playing tonight and, if he continues to improve, the next four years +.

Smith has had several opportunities at 10 and bar one game against South Africa has looked pretty average at international level. His better displays have been from 15 so far. I think it's a pretty good tactic by Borthwick to offer something different to the backline. Smith defends plenty in the backfield anyway and in attack he's stood as the secondary playmaker in a similar way to how Farrell does when he plays 12. I think a lot is being made out of the number on the back of his shirt but there being not much real difference to him wearing 10 and Farrell wearing 12. Smith would still be in the backfield to receive kicks in that instance and still be the secondary playmaker to spread the ball amongst the backs.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:25 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:05 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:42 pm Smith is a FH. That's where he should be playing tonight and, if he continues to improve, the next four years +.

Smith has had several opportunities at 10 and bar one game against South Africa has looked pretty average at international level. His better displays have been from 15 so far. I think it's a pretty good tactic by Borthwick to offer something different to the backline. Smith defends plenty in the backfield anyway and in attack he's stood as the secondary playmaker in a similar way to how Farrell does when he plays 12. I think a lot is being made out of the number on the back of his shirt but there being not much real difference to him wearing 10 and Farrell wearing 12. Smith would still be in the backfield to receive kicks in that instance and still be the secondary playmaker to spread the ball amongst the backs.

Like every other new international, Smith needed a run of games to bed in. I don't think he really got this. Based on his exciting club form, fans and pundits unreasonably expected miracles from the start. His game management needed a bit of work and he was guilty of trying too much at times, but that was offset by his ability to pull something out of the hat. His cause was not helped by the imposed conservative tactics or by the selections on ether side at 9 and 12.
No real point in picking Smith then telling him to play like Farrell.

Insouciant wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:03 pm Jeez that opening kick from Smith was pretty average