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Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:29 pm
by Sandydragon
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:10 pm
I would have Hathaway or Grace on the bench. Gotta get capping them.
Good point. With Liam on the wing there’s no need for a full back on the bench, noting that Beecham covers a lot of positions.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:44 am
by Numbers
Stephanie?
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:31 am
by Graigwen
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:29 pm
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:10 pm
I would have Hathaway or Grace on the bench. Gotta get capping them.
Good point. With Liam on the wing there’s no need for a full back on the bench, noting that Beecham covers a lot of positions.
Gatland has a slight dilemma as he has put himself in a position of being forced to test non-specialist fly half options, while also wanting to see if Grace and Hathaway can perform well. However there is more than one game so he does not have to do everything at the same time. I am confident Grace would deliver in Union, but Hathaway needs a fair chance at the higher level. Neither we, Gatland nor Hathaway would learn much from ten minutes at the end of a game where the outcome was already decided. The flexibility of Liam and Beetham is indeed very helpful, and there seems to be no difficulty in Gatland achieving his information gathering aims on the tour, unless of course injury intervenes.
What do we do if Costelow is injured in the first game?
I accept that these tour games are not actually "must win" games, but they are at least games in which we must preform very well, be close to winning and be competitive throughout. There have been excuses for recent disappointing results, but they are mainly in the past now.
.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:51 am
by Which Tyler
Graigwen wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:31 amNeither we, Gatland nor Hathaway would learn much from ten minutes at the end of a game where the outcome was already decided.
I can't really agree with that; it's pretty much the perfect way to introduce anyone to the extra pace and intensity of test match rugby - especially a 20 year old who's a rookie at club level.
You can absolutely expect him to be shell-shocked by the experience, and learn a shit-tonne, without feeling any personal pressure to do much of anything.
Of course, if he takes to that 10 minutes like a duck to water, then everyone's learned loads.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:42 am
by Numbers
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:51 am
Graigwen wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:31 amNeither we, Gatland nor Hathaway would learn much from ten minutes at the end of a game where the outcome was already decided.
I can't really agree with that; it's pretty much the perfect way to introduce anyone to the extra pace and intensity of test match rugby - especially a 20 year old who's a rookie at club level.
You can absolutely expect him to be shell-shocked by the experience, and learn a shit-tonne, without feeling any personal pressure to do much of anything.
Of course, if he takes to that 10 minutes like a duck to water, then everyone's learned loads.
There is a very good chance that they would not even touch the ball playing on the wing for the last 10 minutes and would you really want a rookie coming on if the test match was in balance at that point? I would personally play them both against the Reds and then cap them in the autumn against lesser opposition.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:22 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:42 am
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:51 am
Graigwen wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:31 amNeither we, Gatland nor Hathaway would learn much from ten minutes at the end of a game where the outcome was already decided.
I can't really agree with that; it's pretty much the perfect way to introduce anyone to the extra pace and intensity of test match rugby - especially a 20 year old who's a rookie at club level.
You can absolutely expect him to be shell-shocked by the experience, and learn a shit-tonne, without feeling any personal pressure to do much of anything.
Of course, if he takes to that 10 minutes like a duck to water, then everyone's learned loads.
There is a very good chance that they would not even touch the ball playing on the wing for the last 10 minutes and would you really want a rookie coming on if the test match was in balance at that point? I would personally play them both against the Reds and then cap them in the autumn against lesser opposition.
I'm not that bothered about the result - it's the Summer tour, our form is dreadful, expectations are very low. For me, we need to cap these guys as a priority. Given that, I don't see a 10 minute taster of test rugby in a friendly is a terrible idea. That's what new players often get. They get a new experience, we get a glimpse of what they can do, at low risk.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:23 pm
by Which Tyler
Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:42 amThere is a very good chance that they would not even touch the ball playing on the wing for the last 10 minutes
Yes, there is; but a better chance of seeing the ball (attack or defence) than sitting in the stands watching.
Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:42 am and would you really want a rookie coming on if the test match was in balance at that point?
By that logic, no-one ever makes a debut.
If the match is in the balance and you're THAT worried about him for 10 minutes, leave him on the bench, or give him 30 seconds so that he can claim his match fee - it happens plenty now (unfortunately in the latter case). If you're (as in Gatland) THAT worried about giving him for 10 minutes on the wing, then he shouldn't be touring.
Lesser opposition - You've got Australia now, then Fiji, Australia and South Africa. Fiji are marginally "lesser" opposition than Australia, but it's pretty marginal. Again though, if it's thought he needs that much protection, then he shouldn't be touring yet anyway.
Of course, worth noting that none of that addresses the point I interjected to make - which is that you CAN learn something from 10 minutes on the wing.
He MAY not see the ball, or make a tackle in that. He MAY score 2 tries. He MAY make 2 try-saving interventions. A lot can happen in 10 minutes of international rugby. For a rookie, every minute is a learning experience, even if the ball doesn't come particularly near then, and they're just adapting to putting the systems in place for real, and not getting within 15m of a rugby ball.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:35 pm
by pompey-zebra
The Fail's reporting that Ben Thomas will start at 10, with Hathaway, Williams and Dyer in the back three. Bevan at 9 and Grady and Watkins as centres.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:38 pm
by Sandydragon
The Fails is suggesting that:
Hathaway will start in place of Winnett, with Liam moving to 15.
Ellis Bevan at 9
Grady at 12
Thomas at 10!
Gatland rolling the dice? (Possibly noting that its via the Fail)
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 6:12 am
by pompey-zebra
Wales: Liam Williams; Josh Hathaway, Owen Watkin, Mason Grady, Rio Dyer; Ben Thomas, Ellis Bevan; Gareth Thomas, Dewi Lake, Archie Griffin, Christ Tshiunza, Dafydd Jenkins, Taine Plumtree, Tommy Reffell, Aaron Wainwright.
Replacements: Evan Lloyd, Kemsley Mathias, Harri O’Connor, Cory Hill, James Botham, Kieran Hardy, Sam Costelow, Nick Tompkins.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:11 am
by Son of Mathonwy
I don't understand bringing Hill on this tour at all, with the Exeter locks now available. We have Carter, Screech, we had Ratti available. If Hill makes himself unavailable again, what was the point? What a message to the others.
To be honest, if Sanjay stays in Japan, the same is almost true of him. Even if he obviously is still playing well. There's no desperate need for another full back/wing - there are youngsters who need more experience.
I'm surprised to see Thomas thrown straight in at 10 but it will be good to see how he goes. Hopefully Gatland won't need to bring Costelow on till the end (if at all).
The rest - fine. It's a tough one to call, with Australia in massive flux. I guess home advantage, history and an excellent coach make them favourites.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:34 am
by Sandydragon
pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 6:12 am
Wales: Liam Williams; Josh Hathaway, Owen Watkin, Mason Grady, Rio Dyer; Ben Thomas, Ellis Bevan; Gareth Thomas, Dewi Lake, Archie Griffin, Christ Tshiunza, Dafydd Jenkins, Taine Plumtree, Tommy Reffell, Aaron Wainwright.
Replacements: Evan Lloyd, Kemsley Mathias, Harri O’Connor, Cory Hill, James Botham, Kieran Hardy, Sam Costelow, Nick Tompkins.
Thats a mobile back 5 of the back. I really hope they can nail down Christ's best position and let him stick to it. A mobile second row could be a good shout.
Also surprised at why Hill is there. No real issues with any other pick. I get why they have gone for the experience of Liam given a brand new cap. Hopefully we see Winnett again soon.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:50 am
by Numbers
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:23 pm
Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:42 amThere is a very good chance that they would not even touch the ball playing on the wing for the last 10 minutes
Yes, there is; but a better chance of seeing the ball (attack or defence) than sitting in the stands watching.
Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:42 am and would you really want a rookie coming on if the test match was in balance at that point?
By that logic, no-one ever makes a debut.
If the match is in the balance and you're THAT worried about him for 10 minutes, leave him on the bench, or give him 30 seconds so that he can claim his match fee - it happens plenty now (unfortunately in the latter case). If you're (as in Gatland) THAT worried about giving him for 10 minutes on the wing, then he shouldn't be touring.
Lesser opposition - You've got Australia now, then Fiji, Australia and South Africa. Fiji are marginally "lesser" opposition than Australia, but it's pretty marginal. Again though, if it's thought he needs that much protection, then he shouldn't be touring yet anyway.
Of course, worth noting that none of that addresses the point I interjected to make - which is that you CAN learn something from 10 minutes on the wing.
He MAY not see the ball, or make a tackle in that. He MAY score 2 tries. He MAY make 2 try-saving interventions. A lot can happen in 10 minutes of international rugby. For a rookie, every minute is a learning experience, even if the ball doesn't come particularly near then, and they're just adapting to putting the systems in place for real, and not getting within 15m of a rugby ball.
There is not a lot of difference playing on the wing at club or national level when it comes to positioining or how the game is played so they won't learn much, they'd have to cover the back field more quickly but that's about it, the basic skillset is the same. if you want to win a test match you'd just pick the best person available, apparently Hathaway has been tearing it up in training so it sounds like he deserves his chance.
Whenever I see players come on for the last 10 minutes to me that seems more like capping them for the sake of it and you don't normally sub your wingers in a game unless there is an injury.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:53 am
by Numbers
I'm liking Ben Thomas at 10, it'll be good to see how he goes, Botham must also be training very well to be selected over Martin on the bench, I'm quite positive about this one, not that I think we'll win but I just like the look of the team, it's very athletic.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:04 am
by normanski
Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:53 am
I'm liking Ben Thomas at 10, it'll be good to see how he goes, Botham must also be training very well to be selected over Martin on the bench, I'm quite positive about this one, not that I think we'll win but I just like the look of the team, it's very athletic.
With Oz capping seven new players we could be in for an exciting match. There’s certainly some weight in the pack and I hope Griffin can learn to use that weight to become a destructive tight head.
Everything to play for and we can now see the core team starting to emerge for RWC 2027.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:28 am
by Sandydragon
Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:53 am
I'm liking Ben Thomas at 10, it'll be good to see how he goes, Botham must also be training very well to be selected over Martin on the bench, I'm quite positive about this one, not that I think we'll win but I just like the look of the team, it's very athletic.
Im very excited to see how Thomas goes. Leta face it, he has a great opportunity to grab that shirt given Costelow's recent form. Ive bought a Sky pass to watch this series, Im hoping we will see some green shoots and potentially a win.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 12:15 pm
by Numbers
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:28 am
Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:53 am
I'm liking Ben Thomas at 10, it'll be good to see how he goes, Botham must also be training very well to be selected over Martin on the bench, I'm quite positive about this one, not that I think we'll win but I just like the look of the team, it's very athletic.
Im very excited to see how Thomas goes. Leta face it, he has a great opportunity to grab that shirt given Costelow's recent form. Ive bought a Sky pass to watch this series, Im hoping we will see some green shoots and potentially a win.
Fingers crossed mate
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 4:33 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:28 am
Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:53 am
I'm liking Ben Thomas at 10, it'll be good to see how he goes, Botham must also be training very well to be selected over Martin on the bench, I'm quite positive about this one, not that I think we'll win but I just like the look of the team, it's very athletic.
Im very excited to see how Thomas goes. Leta face it, he has a great opportunity to grab that shirt given Costelow's recent form. Ive bought a Sky pass to watch this series, Im hoping we will see some green shoots and potentially a win.
I can't be arsed to give Sky money to see this live.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:20 pm
by Graigwen
I am happy enough with that XV. Perhaps the bench could be better. I accept Hill has performed better than expected in the past, but playing well down pecking order in Japan can't have prepared him well for this game.
.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 pm
by Sandydragon
Graigwen wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:20 pm
I am happy enough with that XV. Perhaps the bench could be better. I accept Hill has performed better than expected in the past, but playing well down pecking order in Japan can't have prepared him well for this game.
.
Apparently Carter has an injury which would explain his injury. Bit surprised Mackenzie isn’t on the bench.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:32 pm
by Graigwen
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 pm
Apparently Carter has an injury which would explain his injury. Bit surprised Mackenzie isn’t on the bench.
I think Gatland still believes he is doing a bit of information gathering. I also thought Martin might make the bench, but I suppose Botham's stats from the SA game were fairly good.
One thing that does not depend on tomorrow is Grace on the wing for the next game.
.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:02 am
by normanski
If Wales are to win this then it will be in the last quarter when the Oz bench come on. Only the TH and scrum half have caps, the rest are newbies.
Also, if Griffin can hold his own against Slipper and stabilise the scrum through the first half then we have a fighting chance of winning. It’s probably too close to call.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:11 am
by Graigwen
I agree that Griffin is exposed as our most obvious point of vulnerability. In every sense of the words there is a lot of weight on his shoulders. Slipper is vastly experienced, and knows how to use that experience, but is not naturally an invincible loose head. When Slipper started out he had some poor displays and did not look as if he would have such a long career as an international. All Griffin has to do is survive, as we don't even have any experience on the bench . Lake and the back five are a good unit, but there is no hiding place for props.
I hesitate to underrate the Oz bench, until I have seen them.
.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:56 am
by normanski
Graigwen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:11 am
I hesitate to underrate the Oz bench, until I have seen them.
.
I understand your point but bringing on 4/5 uncapped players in a tight scoring game would tend to favour Wales.
Re: Team for the Summer
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:12 am
by normanski
Looks like our front five got mashed in the first scrum. Worrying.