2024 Autumn Internationals

[septic 9]

team v Portugal
Jordan
Graham Hutchison McDowall (Captain) Reed
Hastings Horne (VC)
Bhatti Harrison Hurd
Craig Samuel
Muncaster Crosbie (VC) Bayliss

subs
Mathews Sutherland Miller-Mills Johnson Douglas Dobie Currie Rowe

looking forward too seeing Freddie Douglas. Exceptional talent who can't get a look in at Edinburgh so far

[Big D]

team v Portugal
Jordan
Graham Hutchison McDowall (Captain) Reed
Hastings Horne (VC)
Bhatti Harrison Hurd
Craig Samuel
Muncaster Crosbie (VC) Bayliss

subs
Mathews Sutherland Miller-Mills Johnson Douglas Dobie Currie Rowe

looking forward too seeing Freddie Douglas. Exceptional talent who can't get a look in at Edinburgh so far

I was saying elsewhere that I'd sack Everitt if he doesn't start giving youth a chance in their actual position. I would sack him anyway. There is too many talented you back rowers to not give them a chance to become the best version of themselves.

On the subject of players playing out of position, I'd rather see Muncaster at 8. Bayliss is a solid pro, jack of all back row trades but the master of none IMO. Will continue to have a decent career but will never carve out a specific role.

[Cameo]

it doesn't. It shows the effect of a really really poor decision by the officials. There was no foul play.

What I meant was that really poor decision didn't have as big an impact as it might.

On the other hand, 20 min red cards maybe make it more likely a red will be given (good in avoiding the cop outs we see on some clear headshots, less good if it leads to decisions like the one on Sunday).

I very much doubt that. It is more likely that refs cop out of a decision they would otherwise make regarding a decision. Let someone else take the flak

Always remember where this is coming from. The SH who frankly are still in the last century regarding high hits and player welfare. This is not about better decision, its about quicker decisions on field so that the Aussies in particular can continue their push towards RL and hope to get better audiences

We certainly should not judge the value of 20min red cards on whether it benefited us this time - and the impact on the rest of the team playing a man short lasts all game, not 20mins

The only criteria to judge it by is player welfare. Does this encourage lower tackles more than a full red card. No fucking way

I'm afraid I still disagree with you even jist by your criteria. The logic makes sense but in reality we have seen year after year of refs copping out on giving the red card in big matches. A 20 minute red does more to encourage lower tackles than a cop out yellow. Yes, I'm catering to bad decisions but the reality is refs feel pressure not to 'ruin' games. That does funny things to their decision making.

[Cameo]

I like the team generally. A few spots I would have gone differently with, but can't have everything.

[switchskier]

team v Portugal
Jordan
Graham Hutchison McDowall (Captain) Reed
Hastings Horne (VC)
Bhatti Harrison Hurd
Craig Samuel
Muncaster Crosbie (VC) Bayliss

subs
Mathews Sutherland Miller-Mills Johnson Douglas Dobie Currie Rowe

looking forward too seeing Freddie Douglas. Exceptional talent who can't get a look in at Edinburgh so far

I was saying elsewhere that I'd sack Everitt if he doesn't start giving youth a chance in their actual position. I would sack him anyway. There is too many talented you back rowers to not give them a chance to become the best version of themselves.

On the subject of players playing out of position, I'd rather see Muncaster at 8. Bayliss is a solid pro, jack of all back row trades but the master of none IMO. Will continue to have a decent career but will never carve out a specific role.

It's my only real area of grump with the team. Hard to deny Matthew's but would have preferred to invest in Hiddlestone. Are McBeth and Walker injured?

On Everitt I agree. He just got a two year contract. His job isn't going to get any more secure.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I just can’t get my head around Bayliss as an international player.

[septic 9]

I'm afraid I still disagree with you even jist by your criteria. The logic makes sense but in reality we have seen year after year of refs copping out on giving the red card in big matches. A 20 minute red does more to encourage lower tackles than a cop out yellow. Yes, I'm catering to bad decisions but the reality is refs feel pressure not to 'ruin' games. That does funny things to their decision making.

Cameo, wake up and smell the coffee. This is being pushed because Aus and NZ especially think there are too many red cards. This despite any cop outs. With a 20min red we will see more cop outs

the pressure not to ruin a game again comes from the same source, NH media do not push as one for the same ting (far from it) as the Antipodeans do. The French and Itrsh Unions have been very clear - this is a backward step in player safety issue, and for my money that takes precedence every time

The 20min red card most definitely not encourage lower tackles. It makes the risk of a high one less harsh if you get it wrong. Our problem is simple, players are coached to hit high. They must be coached to tackle low To encourage that the sanction for an illegal high hit must be severe, and affect not just the player, but the team - and ultimately the coach and club. Coaches at teams who keep getting players permanently sent off are not going to do too well and the coach is not going to last. That is the mind set needed, just apply the laws as intended
But it won't happen, the push is going to get worse as WR have just elected an Aussie as Chair to replace Beaumont

[septic 9]

Yeah I just can’t get my head around Bayliss as an international player.

he is unlikely ever to be a first pick when everyone is fit but he is a very good all round back row

[Cameo]

I'm afraid I still disagree with you even jist by your criteria. The logic makes sense but in reality we have seen year after year of refs copping out on giving the red card in big matches. A 20 minute red does more to encourage lower tackles than a cop out yellow. Yes, I'm catering to bad decisions but the reality is refs feel pressure not to 'ruin' games. That does funny things to their decision making.

Cameo, wake up and smell the coffee. This is being pushed because Aus and NZ especially think there are too many red cards. This despite any cop outs. With a 20min red we will see more cop outs

the pressure not to ruin a game again comes from the same source, NH media do not push as one for the same ting (far from it) as the Antipodeans do. The French and Itrsh Unions have been very clear - this is a backward step in player safety issue, and for my money that takes precedence every time

The 20min red card most definitely not encourage lower tackles. It makes the risk of a high one less harsh if you get it wrong. Our problem is simple, players are coached to hit high. They must be coached to tackle low To encourage that the sanction for an illegal high hit must be severe, and affect not just the player, but the team - and ultimately the coach and club. Coaches at teams who keep getting players permanently sent off are not going to do too well and the coach is not going to last. That is the mind set needed, just apply the laws as intended
But it won't happen, the push is going to get worse as WR have just elected an Aussie as Chair to replace Beaumont

Well, let's see how it plays out. 20 min red cards are less severe than full game ones, but the overall deterent is higher of more of them are given.

As far as I see it, we have had about ten years where for a few weeks there are clamp downs and red cards are given, but the rest of the time refs find an excuse to avoid giving a red for accidental high shots irrespective of what the rules and guidelines show. The deterrence affect isn't really there. Yes, we can try and get refs to do their jobs better, but when they are not sure, they want to make the less high profile decision. My feeling is that 20 min reds are a good balance. Still a severe penalty, but refs won't feel they are ruining a game for an accident.

I might be wrong but we will see (or, more likely, never know).

Incidentally, I think there is some misunderstanding over what the permanent red is for under the trial. Some seem to think it is for any clear red but my understanding is that it will be reserved for the most blatant thuggery. I wouldn't be surprised not to see one given in a top game for years.

[septic 9]

tonight Bealham for Ireland Argentina got a yellow - for a full proper croc roll and landed on the Argie's lower limb. Unlike Cummings no one else involved from either side so no possible mitigation. On review it stayed a yellow card

[paddy no 11]

tonight Bealham for Ireland Argentina got a yellow - for a full proper croc roll and landed on the Argie's lower limb. Unlike Cummings no one else involved from either side so no possible mitigation. On review it stayed a yellow card

Is that really accurate? I recall Bealham pulling him over but hardly landing on lower limb

Cummings decision was wrong but bealhams yellow was about right I think

[septic 9]

tonight Bealham for Ireland Argentina got a yellow - for a full proper croc roll and landed on the Argie's lower limb. Unlike Cummings no one else involved from either side so no possible mitigation. On review it stayed a yellow card

Is that really accurate? I recall Bealham pulling him over but hardly landing on lower limb

Cummings decision was wrong but bealhams yellow was about right I think

maybe not quite landing on it, but targeted it and you can see the Argie immediately clutching his knee as it had been twisted by Bealham. Very dangerous, red all day

[paddy no 11]

tonight Bealham for Ireland Argentina got a yellow - for a full proper croc roll and landed on the Argie's lower limb. Unlike Cummings no one else involved from either side so no possible mitigation. On review it stayed a yellow card

Is that really accurate? I recall Bealham pulling him over but hardly landing on lower limb

Cummings decision was wrong but bealhams yellow was about right I think

maybe not quite landing on it, but targeted it and you can see the Argie immediately clutching his knee as it had been twisted by Bealham. Very dangerous, red all day

He tried to roll him, no hand around the neck and he doesn't land on him at all, 2nd angle you posted shows that imo

[septic 9]

He tried to roll him, no hand around the neck and he doesn't land on him at all, 2nd angle you posted shows that imo

He didn't try to roll him, he rolled him
round the neck would have made it worse, but it is a clear croc roll (as called by officials) and he targets the lower leg. Neither angle are is clear as to whether Bealham also lands on the guys foot initially as well
it could have been very serious, we need to ref actions not outcomes if we want to stamp it out. This was a cop out.
Ref was awful BTW, mostly favouring Ireland but not entirely. The pen on Lowe for the stupid push in the back (and it was stupid) should have been a revered pen for the Argie scrummie changing his line to block Lowe. Had quick peek over his shoulder then changed course. Ref and TJs and TMO oblivious, or not interested in something every ref has been told to clamp down on

[Big D]

Thought it was pretty poor.

Tight 5 mostly outside a couple of bright spots.

Back row went well.

Half backs offered little control to the point Horne should be behind Dobie as Whites back up.

Centres were OK and TJ was good at 15.

I wouldn't change the XV from the SA game although wouldn't be mad if Graham starts.

[BaldiePete]

Let’s face it, that was really a Scotland A team, hardly any of those players will play next Sunday except Graham and possibly Jordan (not saying he doesn’t deserve to play, I’m not sure if Townsend will pick him though). They played like a team who’d just met in the car park, there was no flow like you get from our best team. They’ll get a 2nd chance against Chile on Saturday.

Horne didn’t play very well, there was some poor kicking and I’d certainly have Dobie over him for the bench slot next week. Hastings also had a poor game, which probably increases the chances of Jordan being on the bench. I suspect that DVDM will retain his place and Graham get the right wing. That leaves Kinghorn, Rowe and Jordan fighting over one place at the back. On current form, Jordan should get it but I can see Kinghorn starting, with Jordan on the bench.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I’d assume it’s VDM, Graham, Kinghorn with Jordan and McDowell on the bench. Feels harsh on Rowe but centre cover is more important.

I’d happily have Rowe start for any of those three though, to be honest.

[BaldiePete]

Yeah I’d assume it’s VDM, Graham, Kinghorn with Jordan and McDowell on the bench. Feels harsh on Rowe but centre cover is more important.

I’d happily have Rowe start for any of those three though, to be honest.

Jordan is a centre, who has turned into an excellent standoff and potentially excellent full back. He could cover standoff, centre and full back. If Kinghorn starts, then both Rowe and Jordan can be on the bench with Rowe covering wing.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah that’s fair. Didn’t think of that. I maybe just haven’t seen him play 12 much but know a few of you say that’s his best position.

I don’t think I’d appreciated how useful a move this could be if we have flyhalf cover on the bench that is actually useful in other positions, as we basically never want to take Russell off.

[Cameo]

Agree with the comments on the game here. Not many changed my view on that. Though clearly Freddy Douglas is a fraud - 15 mins and no turnovers!

As some have commented, Horne didn't help himself. Not terrible but not great. Was interesting to see Reed on the wing. Looks rapid but didn't seem to have the power of Graham or the other really top small wings.

Harrison looked decent. Hopefully gets lits of games this season. Felt a bit for Matthews with a couple of missed lineouts, not completely fair when just come in this week but tough for him to live up to the hype anyway.

For Australia, I would pick the same backs as against SA but with Graham on the wing, Kinghorn at full back and Jordan on the bench.

In the forwards, I would pick the same front five and swap Ritchie in for Dempsey with Fagerson to 8. I know Ritchie is not flavour of the month but I still think he's a good player. Best alternative if we want more carrying is maybe Muncaster.

[Cameo]

Recognise I didn't mention Bailiss in the above even though he seems to have stood out. I didn't have the volume on and there were a bunch of forwards with tape so may have missed some of his work.

Also, Portugal were pretty decent I thought. Ambitious and either their scrum and lineout were good or ours were all over the place.

Off topic, but with this new escort interpretation, is there an argument for one of the players going backwards being your primary option to catch. Always taught that you want someone coming on to the ball, but if you know there's a box kick on the way, it might be an idea to station someone short of where you expect it to land with a view to them catching it. They'll act as a blocker without breaking any rules and you will still have your last line to pick up any scraps. It also feels less likely other retreating players will get pinged if they aren't protecting a catcher coming the other way.

[Big D]

https://x.com/Scotlandteam/status/1858511976223154545

Dobie massively unlucky to be with the 2s. Should have been in the 23 for Australia IMO.

[BaldiePete]

Dobie massively unlucky to be with the 2s. Should have been in the 23 for Australia IMO.

If you change “X” to “twitter” in the link then this site will embed the tweet.

Agree about Dobie, he should be on the bench for the Australia match. I just hope that doesn’t mean Price in the 23 for Australia. Lots of Edinburgh players which is indicative of where Edinburgh are just now, but it’ll be good to see Douglas in a full game.

[BaldiePete]

Potential team for Sunday.

Jordan (deserves the start based on form)
Graham
Jones
Tuipolotu
DVDM
Russell
White
Schoeman
Ashman
Fagerson
Gilchrist
Cummings
Fagerson
Darge
Bayliss

Sutherland
Richardson
Hurd or Miller-Mills
Samuel or Craig
Ritchie
Horne
Rowe
Kinghorn

Jordan deserves his chance to start a big game and provides cover for stand-off and centre. I can see Townsend playing Ritchie at 6, Fagerson at 8 and Bayliss on the bench. There’s a case to be made for dropping DVDM in favour of Rowe but I don’t see Townsend as ready to do that yet.

[Big D]

Potential team for Sunday.

Jordan (deserves the start based on form)
Graham
Jones
Tuipolotu
DVDM
Russell
White
Schoeman
Ashman
Fagerson
Gilchrist
Cummings
Fagerson
Darge
Bayliss

Sutherland
Richardson
Hurd or Miller-Mills
Samuel or Craig
Ritchie
Horne
Rowe
Kinghorn

Jordan deserves his chance to start a big game and provides cover for stand-off and centre. I can see Townsend playing Ritchie at 6, Fagerson at 8 and Bayliss on the bench. There’s a case to be made for dropping DVDM in favour of Rowe but I don’t see Townsend as ready to do that yet.

I know I am on a little island on this one but the common denominator in bigger games we win is Duhan scoring tries. He and Graham have the same number of tries and points but Graham has never scored in a six nations win over anyone except Italy and tends to score a bulk of tries in games where Scotland score 30+. Although Duhan hasn't scored against SANZAR nations (Graham has one), I would have a hard time leaving him out.

I would go an unchanged XV from SA against Australia with probably Ritchie on the blindside. With a bench of:
Richardson
Sutherland
Hurd
Samuel
Bayliss
Horne
Hutchinson - would have been McDowall.
Graham

Could go a 6/2 with Craig over Graham. I hate 6/2 splits with 2 backrows on bench when one isn't a hybrid. Craig can play 6 or lock.