Standing for the Anthem

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Goodness. Those are precise demands are they? MLK made a specific list of demands in his speech? Martin Luther's complaint was what, limited to the sale of indulgences? or an entire root and branch protest about the interpretations of bible by the clergy of the time? The Magna Carta is a protest is it? I could have sworn in my law degree it was a statute. You seem to be confused between political campaign, difference of opinion, violent overthrow of government and many other things that I wouldn't even vaguely put in the same category as this protest. As for criticising the Million Man March...

You've rather taken my "this is nothing to do with patriotism" out of context, but even in the context you've decided to place it, I disagree. It's not a question of him being unpatriotic. It's a question of him refusing to observe a ritual that means nothing to him. It's basically the equivalent of refusing to take communion when you've been dragged to church. It's not a question of him attacking anyone else's patriotism. He isn't saying that no one should be allowed to sing the national anthem. he's not even saying it shouldn't be played before games. He's just refusing to observe.

Still, if you want an aim then he's got one at least as specific as some of those you've mentioned. Stop the state condoned murder of innocent black men.

[rowan]

Still, if you want an aim then he's got one at least as specific as some of those you've mentioned. Stop the state condoned murder of innocent black men.

That's all it was ever about.

Patriotism provides criminals and morons with a reason to feel good about themselves, and is designed solely to levy blind obedience to an illusory cause.

[BBD]

I don't believe I am confused at all. Your reaction would tend to suggest you believe I am attacking something that you hold dear, that was not my intention and I apologise for any offence caused.

To clarify
You laid out that you couldn't think of any protests in history that had specific aims - I have given a selection of historical examples that seemed to have pretty specific and clear aims, if the list got a little long, its because the more I considered it, the more I realised how wrong you were in that stance and I probably got too enthusiastic.

I accept they take different forms, I wouldn't suggest otherwise, but they are all historical, with a beginning and an end, a place in history already established and delineated. Kapernicks protest is ongoing, its begun but we have no idea of how it will evolve or what it will or wont achieve. That's actually what I was trying to achieve when entering this debate , unfortunately I seem to have become embroiled in a more heated debate simply because I cant seem to get my point across sufficiently well. I want this protest to cease being a factor in the game I enjoy. I want that to happen because the protestors can see real change in the policies, procedures and practices of US police officers. I see a problem in achieving that which is caused by a lack of precision in how the well intentioned aim can be achieved.

I have dream laid out a vision for a future that MLK wanted to achieve didn't it?- flowery language, beautifully delivered, iconic and of its time but I see precision in what he wanted, he painted a visual image with his words, his oration encapsulated it and communicated it in a memorable and concise manner, so much so that its taught around the world in history classes.
Martin Luther was fairly precise in his criticisms of the Church and what he thought needed to change
With due respect to your qualifications and experience Euge, yes, Magana Carta became a statute, that's how we have come to view it in hindsight, but put it into its context of the time, consider what motivated it to be created, why it was deemed necessary to do the unthinkable at the time and challenge the authority in charge, to band together and risk treason charges and death in order to cajole the King to sign it. "Here King John, sign this blank bit of parchment, we'll fill in the details later so that we can quiz law students on it and use it as the basis for laws. It was a protest that said Oi Johno, you aint above the law. Im not going to get into the content with you, I concede you know more about that than I do. But it was a protest, it was precise and given the fact its still being used and taught today Id say it was a pretty good blueprint of how to get a protest to actually achieve change.(without the swords obviously)

I didn't criticise The Million Man march, I reported as historical fact that it has received criticism for covering a lot (too many) issues amongst other criticisms

Kapernick decided on the protests location, in doing so he created the context. In terms of achieving publicity for his cause and being provocative enough to warrant attention, it is well placed for now. The reason for that is because the ritual he refuses to observe in the traditional manner is deliberately striking at the heart of a symbol of what people hold dear about their nation. Standing for anthems is a mark of respect, Kapernick is holding the worthiness of that respect up to scrutiny and continuing to do so, in full knowledge of what he is doing and the potential reaction he is causing, are you seriously suggesting he is doing that but doesn't think that some people will consider it an unpatriotic thing to do? Most of the anti critics of it would suggest that its lack of patriotism is one of their central objections to it. Even amongst those who agree with his view.

I realise it makes debating easier if I hold an opposing view to you.I don't believe I am doing so though. Im evolving my thinking on this as the days go by and my assumptions and thoughts are challenged by you and kk, which and rowan et al. in doing so Im trying to be as precise and delicate in my communication as I can. I appreciate that from the point of view of the protestor your last line is specific. If you consider it from the point of view of all other parties, its as well intentioned as ever, but unhelpful in how it can be achieved or how it can be satisfied in an imperfect world. In essence that's what Im criticising.

[OptimisticJock]

that was not my intention and I apologise for any offence caused.

You've always been far too nice for the Internet.

[rowan]

Standing for anthems is a mark of respect

or aquiescence, depending on how you look at it...

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I don't believe I am confused at all. Your reaction would tend to suggest you believe I am attacking something that you hold dear, that was not my intention and I apologise for any offence caused.

To clarify
You laid out that you couldn't think of any protests in history that had specific aims - I have given a selection of historical examples that seemed to have pretty specific and clear aims, if the list got a little long, its because the more I considered it, the more I realised how wrong you were in that stance and I probably got too enthusiastic.

I accept they take different forms, I wouldn't suggest otherwise, but they are all historical, with a beginning and an end, a place in history already established and delineated. Kapernicks protest is ongoing, its begun but we have no idea of how it will evolve or what it will or wont achieve. That's actually what I was trying to achieve when entering this debate , unfortunately I seem to have become embroiled in a more heated debate simply because I cant seem to get my point across sufficiently well. I want this protest to cease being a factor in the game I enjoy. I want that to happen because the protestors can see real change in the policies, procedures and practices of US police officers. I see a problem in achieving that which is caused by a lack of precision in how the well intentioned aim can be achieved.

I have dream laid out a vision for a future that MLK wanted to achieve didn't it?- flowery language, beautifully delivered, iconic and of its time but I see precision in what he wanted, he painted a visual image with his words, his oration encapsulated it and communicated it in a memorable and concise manner, so much so that its taught around the world in history classes.
Martin Luther was fairly precise in his criticisms of the Church and what he thought needed to change
With due respect to your qualifications and experience Euge, yes, Magana Carta became a statute, that's how we have come to view it in hindsight, but put it into its context of the time, consider what motivated it to be created, why it was deemed necessary to do the unthinkable at the time and challenge the authority in charge, to band together and risk treason charges and death in order to cajole the King to sign it. "Here King John, sign this blank bit of parchment, we'll fill in the details later so that we can quiz law students on it and use it as the basis for laws. It was a protest that said Oi Johno, you aint above the law. Im not going to get into the content with you, I concede you know more about that than I do. But it was a protest, it was precise and given the fact its still being used and taught today Id say it was a pretty good blueprint of how to get a protest to actually achieve change.(without the swords obviously)

I didn't criticise The Million Man march, I reported as historical fact that it has received criticism for covering a lot (too many) issues amongst other criticisms

Kapernick decided on the protests location, in doing so he created the context. In terms of achieving publicity for his cause and being provocative enough to warrant attention, it is well placed for now. The reason for that is because the ritual he refuses to observe in the traditional manner is deliberately striking at the heart of a symbol of what people hold dear about their nation. Standing for anthems is a mark of respect, Kapernick is holding the worthiness of that respect up to scrutiny and continuing to do so, in full knowledge of what he is doing and the potential reaction he is causing, are you seriously suggesting he is doing that but doesn't think that some people will consider it an unpatriotic thing to do? Most of the anti critics of it would suggest that its lack of patriotism is one of their central objections to it. Even amongst those who agree with his view.

I realise it makes debating easier if I hold an opposing view to you.I don't believe I am doing so though. Im evolving my thinking on this as the days go by and my assumptions and thoughts are challenged by you and kk, which and rowan et al. in doing so Im trying to be as precise and delicate in my communication as I can. I appreciate that from the point of view of the protestor your last line is specific. If you consider it from the point of view of all other parties, its as well intentioned as ever, but unhelpful in how it can be achieved or how it can be satisfied in an imperfect world. In essence that's what Im criticising.

BBD, I am not at all offended. I think your argument is entirely misconceived and you have lumped together completely disparate actions to make a point that you are determined to hang on to. If I'm showing signs of irritation that is why. There's no point in going through this line by line because it really is pointless at this stage.

Again, if you want an aim for him then he's expressed it no less clearly than MLK's list of aspirations or many of the others you cite. He's not an idiot. He doesn't think that if he takes a knee that Congress will immediately enact another Civil Rights Act and he doesn't have a draft for it in his pocket., nor does he need to for his protest to be relevant.

[BBD]

that was not my intention and I apologise for any offence caused.

You've always been far too nice for the Internet.

Should I call someone a cunt?

[BBD]

Standing for anthems is a mark of respect

or aquiescence, depending on how you look at it...

Indeed, although I suspect that's more to do with pre conceptions about other associated issues than a true analysis of the anthem itself

[BBD]

I don't believe I am confused at all. Your reaction would tend to suggest you believe I am attacking something that you hold dear, that was not my intention and I apologise for any offence caused.

To clarify
You laid out that you couldn't think of any protests in history that had specific aims - I have given a selection of historical examples that seemed to have pretty specific and clear aims, if the list got a little long, its because the more I considered it, the more I realised how wrong you were in that stance and I probably got too enthusiastic.

I accept they take different forms, I wouldn't suggest otherwise, but they are all historical, with a beginning and an end, a place in history already established and delineated. Kapernicks protest is ongoing, its begun but we have no idea of how it will evolve or what it will or wont achieve. That's actually what I was trying to achieve when entering this debate , unfortunately I seem to have become embroiled in a more heated debate simply because I cant seem to get my point across sufficiently well. I want this protest to cease being a factor in the game I enjoy. I want that to happen because the protestors can see real change in the policies, procedures and practices of US police officers. I see a problem in achieving that which is caused by a lack of precision in how the well intentioned aim can be achieved.

I have dream laid out a vision for a future that MLK wanted to achieve didn't it?- flowery language, beautifully delivered, iconic and of its time but I see precision in what he wanted, he painted a visual image with his words, his oration encapsulated it and communicated it in a memorable and concise manner, so much so that its taught around the world in history classes.
Martin Luther was fairly precise in his criticisms of the Church and what he thought needed to change
With due respect to your qualifications and experience Euge, yes, Magana Carta became a statute, that's how we have come to view it in hindsight, but put it into its context of the time, consider what motivated it to be created, why it was deemed necessary to do the unthinkable at the time and challenge the authority in charge, to band together and risk treason charges and death in order to cajole the King to sign it. "Here King John, sign this blank bit of parchment, we'll fill in the details later so that we can quiz law students on it and use it as the basis for laws. It was a protest that said Oi Johno, you aint above the law. Im not going to get into the content with you, I concede you know more about that than I do. But it was a protest, it was precise and given the fact its still being used and taught today Id say it was a pretty good blueprint of how to get a protest to actually achieve change.(without the swords obviously)

I didn't criticise The Million Man march, I reported as historical fact that it has received criticism for covering a lot (too many) issues amongst other criticisms

Kapernick decided on the protests location, in doing so he created the context. In terms of achieving publicity for his cause and being provocative enough to warrant attention, it is well placed for now. The reason for that is because the ritual he refuses to observe in the traditional manner is deliberately striking at the heart of a symbol of what people hold dear about their nation. Standing for anthems is a mark of respect, Kapernick is holding the worthiness of that respect up to scrutiny and continuing to do so, in full knowledge of what he is doing and the potential reaction he is causing, are you seriously suggesting he is doing that but doesn't think that some people will consider it an unpatriotic thing to do? Most of the anti critics of it would suggest that its lack of patriotism is one of their central objections to it. Even amongst those who agree with his view.

I realise it makes debating easier if I hold an opposing view to you.I don't believe I am doing so though. Im evolving my thinking on this as the days go by and my assumptions and thoughts are challenged by you and kk, which and rowan et al. in doing so Im trying to be as precise and delicate in my communication as I can. I appreciate that from the point of view of the protestor your last line is specific. If you consider it from the point of view of all other parties, its as well intentioned as ever, but unhelpful in how it can be achieved or how it can be satisfied in an imperfect world. In essence that's what Im criticising.

BBD, I am not at all offended. I think your argument is entirely misconceived and you have lumped together completely disparate actions to make a point that you are determined to hang on to. If I'm showing signs of irritation that is why. There's no point in going through this line by line because it really is pointless at this stage.

Again, if you want an aim for him then he's expressed it no less clearly than MLK's list of aspirations or many of the others you cite. He's not an idiot. He doesn't think that if he takes a knee that Congress will immediately enact another Civil Rights Act and he doesn't have a draft for it in his pocket., nor does he need to for his protest to be relevant.

Well, I regret that offering a view that doesn't simply endorse his actions as sufficient is a source of irritation.

Unfortunately history shows that the validity or justice of a protest is not the only factor that makes it a successful influence upon change in society. Even if you add in massive public awareness it still doesn't mean change is a given. I think that's an entirely relevant point to make when considering this protest, and I'm clinging onto it because I think it's important that this protest succeeds. I think it's a pity that such an incisive gesture is probably destined to be just as toothless as a Facebook page that people are encouraged to like and share. The relevance of his protest I haven't questioned, I am questioning the likelihood of success when its goal can only be a conceptual one rather than a pragmatic one

[OptimisticJock]

that was not my intention and I apologise for any offence caused.

You've always been far too nice for the Internet.

Should I call someone a cunt?

Only if you really mean it.

[Digby]

You've always been far too nice for the Internet.

Should I call someone a cunt?

Only if you really mean it.

Dear god, my time in London went worse than I thought! I'd been assuming they used the word as part of a breathing plan.

[Digby]

Well, I regret that offering a view that doesn't simply endorse his actions as sufficient is a source of irritation.

Unfortunately history shows that the validity or justice of a protest is not the only factor that makes it a successful influence upon change in society. Even if you add in massive public awareness it still doesn't mean change is a given. I think that's an entirely relevant point to make when considering this protest, and I'm clinging onto it because I think it's important that this protest succeeds. I think it's a pity that such an incisive gesture is probably destined to be just as toothless as a Facebook page that people are encouraged to like and share. The relevance of his protest I haven't questioned, I am questioning the likelihood of success when its goal can only be a conceptual one rather than a pragmatic one

Max Weber said (amongst other things):

"Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards. It takes both passion and perspective. Certainly all historical experience confirms the truth - that man would not have attained the possible unless time and again he had reached out for the impossible."

[BBD]

Well, I regret that offering a view that doesn't simply endorse his actions as sufficient is a source of irritation.

Unfortunately history shows that the validity or justice of a protest is not the only factor that makes it a successful influence upon change in society. Even if you add in massive public awareness it still doesn't mean change is a given. I think that's an entirely relevant point to make when considering this protest, and I'm clinging onto it because I think it's important that this protest succeeds. I think it's a pity that such an incisive gesture is probably destined to be just as toothless as a Facebook page that people are encouraged to like and share. The relevance of his protest I haven't questioned, I am questioning the likelihood of success when its goal can only be a conceptual one rather than a pragmatic one

Max Weber said (amongst other things):

"Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards. It takes both passion and perspective. Certainly all historical experience confirms the truth - that man would not have attained the possible unless time and again he had reached out for the impossible."

he sounds like a right cunt

[BBD]

[OptimisticJock]

Should I call someone a cunt?

Only if you really mean it.

Dear god, my time in London went worse than I thought! I'd been assuming they used the word as part of a breathing plan.

Tbf I use it if I like you, don't like you or to describe the person over there that I've never met.

[rowan]

[Discreet Hooker]

Have you seen a Twickenham crowd sing the anthem . ?

I have never seen such right wing nazi homophobic hate instilling nutters demanding world domination and the expulsion of anyone or anything not willing to bow down to the Red Rose .


Thats what my mate told me and he knows everything .,

[rowan]

[SerjeantWildgoose]

What in the name of feck!

I thought that Kaepernick had died; I certainly hoped that this thread had!

[rowan]

You've been showing your true colours lately, haven't you, mate.

[OptimisticJock]

I imagine it's a dark brown/yellow accompanied by a pungent fishy smell at his age.

[rowan]

I imagine it's a dark brown/yellow accompanied by a pungent fishy smell at his age.

That's about what I had in mind, too...

[kk67]

Have you seen a Twickenham crowd sing the anthem . ?

I have never seen such right wing nazi homophobic hate instilling nutters demanding world domination and the expulsion of anyone or anything not willing to bow down to the Red Rose .


Thats what my mate told me and he knows everything .,

Both God save the queen and the star spangled banner have verses that are totally unacceptable.
In truth, they are worse than the first two lines of the German national anthem. At least the Krauts had the decency to ditch the offending lines.

[rowan]

Have you seen a Twickenham crowd sing the anthem . ?

I have never seen such right wing nazi homophobic hate instilling nutters demanding world domination and the expulsion of anyone or anything not willing to bow down to the Red Rose .


Thats what my mate told me and he knows everything .,

Both God save the queen and the star spangled banner have verses that are totally unacceptable.
In truth, they are worse than the first two lines of the German national anthem. At least the Krauts had the decency to ditch the offending lines.

New Zealand's anthem is pretty danged awful as well, described as a funereal dirge, its expressions of nationalist and religious fervor both outdated and culturally insensitive. Give me Pokarekare Ana any day

[kk67]

[

It's precisely because of the mindless nationalism into which American children are indoctrinated that this is an effective protest. Perhaps more Americans should think critically about why it is portrayed as being compulsory to put your hand on your heart, stand up for the anthem, pledge allegiance etc.

If it doesn't upset at least some people, it's probably not an effective protest.

and todays post of the day goes to........BBD for making me read the entire thread again. You knut.
Only tempered by it being an interesting read.

I see no one is hiring him.