Transfer gossip - sometimes even accurate (accidentally) - Season 2022/23

[Puja]

Would an English club be able to afford Willis and remain under the cap currently? I'm unclear, although I suspect the Wasps/Wuss lot will all be given special dispensation. I'm not so sure that relaxing the rules isn't such a bad idea for the short-term, given English rugby is now losing players with the stature of Vunipola, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Nowell etc. Yes, we want England's stars playing in the Prem and the lure of an England cap is a strong one, but economically at the moment English rugby just isn't in a place to compete with the bigger URC and French clubs and on the field England isn't New Zealand, which can absorb multiple players heading overseas as there's usually three or four quality options bubbling under the surface just waiting for a chance. I'm a supporter of the policy to only pick players who play here, but at the moment it's possibly unrealistic to enforce. South Africa and Argentina show that it's still possible to compete without an iron grip on your entire playing base, for example.

Mikey has nailed it - of the players going overseas, the only ones who I think are a significant loss to England post RWC are LCD and Marchant, and even those aren't massive losses. Whereas if the league loses Itoje, Genge, Smith, Steward, Curry, Dombrandt, etc in quick succession, it's done for as a viable entity. How would it develop internationals with the quality so drastically lowered, why would fans tune in to watch a second division competition that's basically a development league for the Top 14, who would sponsor such a thing?

Your point about England not being NZ in terms of player production are valid, but I'd say they argue my point not yours - we can't afford to have all our best players disappearing off to Japan or France, because there's not three or four quality options there to replace them.

Puja

[francoisfou]

From a selfish point of view, I enjoy watching the likes of Mercer, Willis bros, etc but my English side would still prefer to see them wearing white

[Mellsblue]

Would an English club be able to afford Willis and remain under the cap currently? I'm unclear, although I suspect the Wasps/Wuss lot will all be given special dispensation. I'm not so sure that relaxing the rules isn't such a bad idea for the short-term, given English rugby is now losing players with the stature of Vunipola, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Nowell etc. Yes, we want England's stars playing in the Prem and the lure of an England cap is a strong one (see: Mercer), but economically at the moment English rugby just isn't in a place to compete with the bigger URC and French clubs and on the field England isn't New Zealand, which can absorb multiple players heading overseas as there's usually three or four quality options bubbling under the surface just waiting for a chance. I'm a supporter of the policy to only pick players who play here, but at the moment it's possibly unrealistic to enforce. South Africa and Argentina show that it's still possible to compete without an iron grip on your entire playing base, for example.

I feel like the players listed, at that stage in their careers, going to France isn’t that big a deal to be honest? Would be nice to keep LCD because we haven’t really looked at many other option behind him and George, but I feel like the rule has kept a lot of good players in the premiership.

Mercer (and Marchant you could argue) only really gone due to being shut out at international level by one specific coach.

It kept a lot of the players in the Prem when it was the best or second best payer, the clubs were pretty much on par with the French clubs and Irish provinces in Europe and the league was the strongest or second strongest in Europe. It’ll be interesting to see what the drain is like now that salary cap means Prem clubs are being outbid by even the Scot franchises and the quality of player in the Prem will almost certainly decline.
It ok saying it’s only LCD but he and S Simmonds mean that two current EPS members who are both young enough to play at the next RWC have decided to move abroad which, if my memory serves, is a 100% increase on any other EPS squad.

[jimKRFC]

Extension for Semi?? Watch the waist high tackles!!

[SDHoneymonster]

I feel like the players listed, at that stage in their careers, going to France isn’t that big a deal to be honest? Would be nice to keep LCD because we haven’t really looked at many other option behind him and George, but I feel like the rule has kept a lot of good players in the premiership.

Mercer (and Marchant you could argue) only really gone due to being shut out at international level by one specific coach.

It kept a lot of the players in the Prem when it was the best or second best payer, the clubs were pretty much on par with the French clubs and Irish provinces in Europe and the league was the strongest or second strongest in Europe. It’ll be interesting to see what the drain is like now that salary cap means Prem clubs are being outbid by even the Scot franchises and the quality of player in the Prem will almost certainly decline.
It ok saying it’s only LCD but he and S Simmonds mean that two current EPS members who are both young enough to play at the next RWC have decided to move abroad which, if my memory serves, is a 100% increase on any other EPS squad.

This is my argument - I'm not sure people are grasping just how far down the pecking order the Prem now is. In truth given how badly both the RFU and the clubs themselves run the game here we might not even have hit rock bottom yet, let alone be anywhere near getting back towards the level the league was pre-Covid (although it's not lost on me that it's significantly more entertaining to watch at the moment than it has been at pretty much any point in its history, but entertainment doesn't necessarily equal quality). Puja's point is valid about it then being even more important to try and keep your best players in the league to improve the quality but that's exactly why the departures of the likes of LCD, Simmonds and Marchant are so worrying - not just their age profile, but that's a hell of a lot of quality for the league to be losing and it's proof that the prospect of not playing for England again is no longer seen as a significant enough threat to keep even players who are actually in the England squad here. And RE: the potential departures of Vunipola and Nowell, again people can say that at this stage of their careers it's not a big deal, but they're both highly experienced international players who've also won domestic and European competitions - that quality and experience doesn't grow on trees and is invaluable to helping develop the next generation of players, so the league becomes significantly poorer for their absence even if they're not inked in for England squads nowadays. I suppose I've been making the wrong argument - I'm not arguing against the rule in itself, but I do think we're starting to see the end of its effectiveness, at least until the league gets itself in a position to compete financially again, and England are currently not a strong enough side to willingly exile the amount of players who are quite likely to start heading overseas in the next couple of years.

[Banquo]

I feel like the players listed, at that stage in their careers, going to France isn’t that big a deal to be honest? Would be nice to keep LCD because we haven’t really looked at many other option behind him and George, but I feel like the rule has kept a lot of good players in the premiership.

Mercer (and Marchant you could argue) only really gone due to being shut out at international level by one specific coach.

It kept a lot of the players in the Prem when it was the best or second best payer, the clubs were pretty much on par with the French clubs and Irish provinces in Europe and the league was the strongest or second strongest in Europe. It’ll be interesting to see what the drain is like now that salary cap means Prem clubs are being outbid by even the Scot franchises and the quality of player in the Prem will almost certainly decline.
It ok saying it’s only LCD but he and S Simmonds mean that two current EPS members who are both young enough to play at the next RWC have decided to move abroad which, if my memory serves, is a 100% increase on any other EPS squad.

This is my argument - I'm not sure people are grasping just how far down the pecking order the Prem now is. In truth given how badly both the RFU and the clubs themselves run the game here we might not even have hit rock bottom yet, let alone be anywhere near getting back towards the level the league was pre-Covid (although it's not lost on me that it's significantly more entertaining to watch at the moment than it has been at pretty much any point in its history, but entertainment doesn't necessarily equal quality). Puja's point is valid about it then being even more important to try and keep your best players in the league to improve the quality but that's exactly why the departures of the likes of LCD, Simmonds and Marchant are so worrying - not just their age profile, but that's a hell of a lot of quality for the league to be losing and it's proof that the prospect of not playing for England again is no longer seen as a significant enough threat to keep even players who are actually in the England squad here. And RE: the potential departures of Vunipola and Nowell, again people can say that at this stage of their careers it's not a big deal, but they're both highly experienced international players who've also won domestic and European competitions - that quality and experience doesn't grow on trees and is invaluable to helping develop the next generation of players, so the league becomes significantly poorer for their absence even if they're not inked in for England squads nowadays. I suppose I've been making the wrong argument - I'm not arguing against the rule in itself, but I do think we're starting to see the end of its effectiveness, at least until the league gets itself in a position to compete financially again, and England are currently not a strong enough side to willingly exile the amount of players who are quite likely to start heading overseas in the next couple of years.

We are in the paradoxical position of the salary cap being too low for quality AND depth (and god knows we need more rotation and bigger squads anyway tbh), too low to retain experienced England players looking for security in retirement, but no clubs who could afford the hike (probably)....with an England side not generating the kind of off field earnings to bolster players currently, Bit of a mare, and as you say, I don't think we've hit the bottom yet.

(and that's without talking about the parlous state of (male) adult participation in non pro rugby)

[Puja]

I suppose I've been making the wrong argument - I'm not arguing against the rule in itself, but I do think we're starting to see the end of its effectiveness, at least until the league gets itself in a position to compete financially again, and England are currently not a strong enough side to willingly exile the amount of players who are quite likely to start heading overseas in the next couple of years.

I'm not willing to call the demise of its effectiveness just yet - the money for England games makes up the difference between Prem and T14 and, while fringe players might be looking at the calculation and thinking they'd rather bank a higher salary than gamble that they'll stay in the EPS, we're currently only losing one player (Joe Marchant) who will be under 30 when they go.

If the flow starts to shift from players coming to the end of their careers, then I'm willing to be convinced that we're better off changing the rules, but right now I prefer keeping our domestic comp on life support, even if that limits England a little.

Puja

[Cameo]

Surely your current discussion in the 6N thread bulsters this point too. If J Willis missing training is a factor in him being out the squad, imagine if half your squad was playing for their french clubs on off weekends. That would be the reality (maybe not half but a chunk of the better ones).

[Oakboy]

Surely your current discussion in the 6N thread bulsters this point too. If J Willis missing training is a factor in him being out the squad, imagine if half your squad was playing for their french clubs on off weekends. That would be the reality (maybe not half but a chunk of the better ones).

Perhaps, the value of attending/missing squad training sessions needs rational assessment. Several Scottish players (e.g. Gray, Hogg) do not seem to have suffered that greatly in terms of international performance having played for their clubs the Saturday before.

[SDHoneymonster]

Surely your current discussion in the 6N thread bulsters this point too. If J Willis missing training is a factor in him being out the squad, imagine if half your squad was playing for their french clubs on off weekends. That would be the reality (maybe not half but a chunk of the better ones).

Perhaps, the value of attending/missing squad training sessions needs rational assessment. Several Scottish players (e.g. Gray, Hogg) do not seem to have suffered that greatly in terms of international performance having played for their clubs the Saturday before.

It's not as much of an issue for South Africa as it used to be with more of their players now based back in SA, but it's worth pointing out they won a World Cup with many of their stars based in England and France too. Argentina also have to deal with the disruption but manage to compete. It's only really England, Ireland and New Zealand that have such a strictly enforced overseas rule (I'm not sure if France do, but they don't have to worry about their players heading overseas as they're already in the best paid competition at home, and they used to still pick Picamoles when he was at Saints) - everyone else has to find a way around it. It's certainly not ideal, but this idea that it kills your international chances stone dead is also misplaced.

[jimKRFC]

Ruck linking Harry Thacker with a move to Exeter and Tipuric with a move to Bristol.
Hope the Thacker one is wrong!

[FKAS]

Tipuric at Bristol would be well worth the watch, he'd add a lot there. If Piatau is off and the money he's on is being split between Tips and Malins that would leave Bristol better off overall.

[Puja]

Ruck linking Harry Thacker with a move to Exeter and Tipuric with a move to Bristol.
Hope the Thacker one is wrong!

Thacker doesn't feel like an archetypal Exeter signing. Bit small and fleet for their tastes?

Puja

[FKAS]

Ruck linking Harry Thacker with a move to Exeter and Tipuric with a move to Bristol.
Hope the Thacker one is wrong!

Thacker doesn't feel like an archetypal Exeter signing. Bit small and fleet for their tastes?

Puja

Unless he's going to play 8.

[Timbo]

I wouldn’t be for any major changes to the England selection policy just yet. A lot is up in the air at the moment, with the PGB & BT sport deal up for negotiation in the next year. See where revenues are after that.

There’s also the fact that, as things stand, the cap is due to go back up the season after next. No doubt the well backed clubs-Bristol, Bath, Sarries etc- will be looking to pay up to it, and several others will be loosening the purse strings a bit too.

[Which Tyler]

Cokanasiga extends his contract at Bath - dunno by how long.

[francoisfou]

Vern Cotter has suddenly resigned as Fiji coach - for personal reasons.

I wonder if he could be heading for Leicester?

[jimKRFC]

Tipuric at Bristol would be well worth the watch, he'd add a lot there. If Piatau is off and the money he's on is being split between Tips and Malins that would leave Bristol better off overall.

If he was 4 or 5 years younger then maybe... but he's 33! That is not the sign of a club trying to build and move forward, it would be a sign of club looking a bit desperate to solidify a weak squad.

Anyhow, the Bristol post reporter saying it's wide of the mark but there should be news in the week or so.

[FKAS]

Jim, Tipuric hasn't been playing likes he's only got a year left in the legs. Been playing very well, particularly in Europe.

Francois, yeah the rumours re Cotter and Tigers have already started. I'm torn on whether I want him to come in, he'd be a great fit and play to our strengths but he'd play to our strengths and we have some glaring weaknesses that could do with some innovation I'm not sure he'd have (unless he got the right assistant (s)).

[jimKRFC]

New Bristol rumor:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/rug ... ou-8115811

[Mellsblue]

I feel like this has at least been reported as a rumour on here but here is the confirmation:

[Banquo]

I feel like this has at least been reported as a rumour on here but here is the confirmation:

nothing to crow about...

[FKAS]

Ian Peel the Sarries scrum coach still the one linked to replace Cockers or is there new rumours?

[Mellsblue]

The Wiggler and Alex Walters to join B Diddy at England at the end of the season. Walters was well known but I think Wiggles comes as a surprise?

[Banquo]

The Wiggler and Alex Walters to join B Diddy at England at the end of the season. Walters was well known but I think Wiggles comes as a surprise?

who will they replace in the current coaching set up?