RugbyRebels

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:17 pm Would an English club be able to afford Willis and remain under the cap currently? I'm unclear, although I suspect the Wasps/Wuss lot will all be given special dispensation. I'm not so sure that relaxing the rules isn't such a bad idea for the short-term, given English rugby is now losing players with the stature of Vunipola, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Nowell etc. Yes, we want England's stars playing in the Prem and the lure of an England cap is a strong one, but economically at the moment English rugby just isn't in a place to compete with the bigger URC and French clubs and on the field England isn't New Zealand, which can absorb multiple players heading overseas as there's usually three or four quality options bubbling under the surface just waiting for a chance. I'm a supporter of the policy to only pick players who play here, but at the moment it's possibly unrealistic to enforce. South Africa and Argentina show that it's still possible to compete without an iron grip on your entire playing base, for example.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:18 pm

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:17 pm Would an English club be able to afford Willis and remain under the cap currently? I'm unclear, although I suspect the Wasps/Wuss lot will all be given special dispensation. I'm not so sure that relaxing the rules isn't such a bad idea for the short-term, given English rugby is now losing players with the stature of Vunipola, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Nowell etc. Yes, we want England's stars playing in the Prem and the lure of an England cap is a strong one (see: Mercer), but economically at the moment English rugby just isn't in a place to compete with the bigger URC and French clubs and on the field England isn't New Zealand, which can absorb multiple players heading overseas as there's usually three or four quality options bubbling under the surface just waiting for a chance. I'm a supporter of the policy to only pick players who play here, but at the moment it's possibly unrealistic to enforce. South Africa and Argentina show that it's still possible to compete without an iron grip on your entire playing base, for example.

I feel like the players listed, at that stage in their careers, going to France isn’t that big a deal to be honest? Would be nice to keep LCD because we haven’t really looked at many other option behind him and George, but I feel like the rule has kept a lot of good players in the premiership.

Mercer (and Marchant you could argue) only really gone due to being shut out at international level by one specific coach.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:53 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:18 pm

I feel like the players listed, at that stage in their careers, going to France isn’t that big a deal to be honest? Would be nice to keep LCD because we haven’t really looked at many other option behind him and George, but I feel like the rule has kept a lot of good players in the premiership.

Mercer (and Marchant you could argue) only really gone due to being shut out at international level by one specific coach.

It kept a lot of the players in the Prem when it was the best or second best payer, the clubs were pretty much on par with the French clubs and Irish provinces in Europe and the league was the strongest or second strongest in Europe. It’ll be interesting to see what the drain is like now that salary cap means Prem clubs are being outbid by even the Scot franchises and the quality of player in the Prem will almost certainly decline.
It ok saying it’s only LCD but he and S Simmonds mean that two current EPS members who are both young enough to play at the next RWC have decided to move abroad which, if my memory serves, is a 100% increase on any other EPS squad.

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:23 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:53 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm

I feel like the players listed, at that stage in their careers, going to France isn’t that big a deal to be honest? Would be nice to keep LCD because we haven’t really looked at many other option behind him and George, but I feel like the rule has kept a lot of good players in the premiership.

Mercer (and Marchant you could argue) only really gone due to being shut out at international level by one specific coach.

It kept a lot of the players in the Prem when it was the best or second best payer, the clubs were pretty much on par with the French clubs and Irish provinces in Europe and the league was the strongest or second strongest in Europe. It’ll be interesting to see what the drain is like now that salary cap means Prem clubs are being outbid by even the Scot franchises and the quality of player in the Prem will almost certainly decline.
It ok saying it’s only LCD but he and S Simmonds mean that two current EPS members who are both young enough to play at the next RWC have decided to move abroad which, if my memory serves, is a 100% increase on any other EPS squad.

This is my argument - I'm not sure people are grasping just how far down the pecking order the Prem now is. In truth given how badly both the RFU and the clubs themselves run the game here we might not even have hit rock bottom yet, let alone be anywhere near getting back towards the level the league was pre-Covid (although it's not lost on me that it's significantly more entertaining to watch at the moment than it has been at pretty much any point in its history, but entertainment doesn't necessarily equal quality). Puja's point is valid about it then being even more important to try and keep your best players in the league to improve the quality but that's exactly why the departures of the likes of LCD, Simmonds and Marchant are so worrying - not just their age profile, but that's a hell of a lot of quality for the league to be losing and it's proof that the prospect of not playing for England again is no longer seen as a significant enough threat to keep even players who are actually in the England squad here. And RE: the potential departures of Vunipola and Nowell, again people can say that at this stage of their careers it's not a big deal, but they're both highly experienced international players who've also won domestic and European competitions - that quality and experience doesn't grow on trees and is invaluable to helping develop the next generation of players, so the league becomes significantly poorer for their absence even if they're not inked in for England squads nowadays. I suppose I've been making the wrong argument - I'm not arguing against the rule in itself, but I do think we're starting to see the end of its effectiveness, at least until the league gets itself in a position to compete financially again, and England are currently not a strong enough side to willingly exile the amount of players who are quite likely to start heading overseas in the next couple of years.

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:23 pmI suppose I've been making the wrong argument - I'm not arguing against the rule in itself, but I do think we're starting to see the end of its effectiveness, at least until the league gets itself in a position to compete financially again, and England are currently not a strong enough side to willingly exile the amount of players who are quite likely to start heading overseas in the next couple of years.

Cameo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:31 am Surely your current discussion in the 6N thread bulsters this point too. If J Willis missing training is a factor in him being out the squad, imagine if half your squad was playing for their french clubs on off weekends. That would be the reality (maybe not half but a chunk of the better ones).

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:18 am

Cameo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:31 am Surely your current discussion in the 6N thread bulsters this point too. If J Willis missing training is a factor in him being out the squad, imagine if half your squad was playing for their french clubs on off weekends. That would be the reality (maybe not half but a chunk of the better ones).

Perhaps, the value of attending/missing squad training sessions needs rational assessment. Several Scottish players (e.g. Gray, Hogg) do not seem to have suffered that greatly in terms of international performance having played for their clubs the Saturday before.

jimKRFC wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am Ruck linking Harry Thacker with a move to Exeter and Tipuric with a move to Bristol.
Hope the Thacker one is wrong!

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:38 pm

jimKRFC wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am Ruck linking Harry Thacker with a move to Exeter and Tipuric with a move to Bristol.
Hope the Thacker one is wrong!

Thacker doesn't feel like an archetypal Exeter signing. Bit small and fleet for their tastes?

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:05 pm Tipuric at Bristol would be well worth the watch, he'd add a lot there. If Piatau is off and the money he's on is being split between Tips and Malins that would leave Bristol better off overall.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:01 am I feel like this has at least been reported as a rumour on here but here is the confirmation:

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:16 pm The Wiggler and Alex Walters to join B Diddy at England at the end of the season. Walters was well known but I think Wiggles comes as a surprise?