America

[morepork]

For the big klan rally in Oklahoma next week, securing tickets to attend requires agreeing to a waiver that absolves organisers of any responsibility for subsequent COVID illness. I shit you not. Irresponsible doesn't even begin to describe it.

By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury.

[Banquo]

For the big klan rally in Oklahoma next week, securing tickets to attend requires agreeing to a waiver that absolves organisers of any responsibility for subsequent COVID illness. I shit you not. Irresponsible doesn't even begin to describe it.

By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury.

Mad. But I wouldn't be surprised if we see that sort of disclaimer- excluding the Trump bit- commonly used as lockdown eases and events come back online.

[Stom]

While I do have a problem with the events happening, if they're going to happen I have no problem with that disclaimer. They need to cover their backs.

[Banquo]

While I do have a problem with the events happening, if they're going to happen I have no problem with that disclaimer. They need to cover their backs.

aye, suspect that might be a generic way out of lockdown. The mad was referring to Trump and his event.

[morepork]

While I do have a problem with the events happening, if they're going to happen I have no problem with that disclaimer. They need to cover their backs.

Tis a good point, far more nuanced than my initial rage at the specific event. I do however take issue with any event that promotes the compulsory herding in of people in close proximity, especially when those people are paying for that risk. Extending the discussion, what happens with events like voting? If people are compelled to vote, and the organisers of the voting process admit there is a public health risk, is it reasonable for the public to waive any possibility of the organisers being accountable for not providing alternative means to vote. Personally, I think that the rally in question in my original post is entirely accountable for the public health consequences as they have admitted there is a risk. That risk would not exist if the rally did not. The buck has to stop somewhere, surely.

[Buggaluggs]

By voting for the tangerine twat, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of him getting elected exists. By voting stupidly you voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to moronic leadership and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any fucktoonery that will likely transpire.

[canta_brian]

America, land of the fleeced and home of depraved.

Where the president will tell you to your face that Covid isn’t an issue and has been dealt with, but will still indemnify himself from litigation if you catch it. Will any of the klanspeople take pause to wonder if one is necessary if the other is true?

[Which Tyler]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1QXnd3FRF4

[Sandydragon]

While I do have a problem with the events happening, if they're going to happen I have no problem with that disclaimer. They need to cover their backs.

Tis a good point, far more nuanced than my initial rage at the specific event. I do however take issue with any event that promotes the compulsory herding in of people in close proximity, especially when those people are paying for that risk. Extending the discussion, what happens with events like voting? If people are compelled to vote, and the organisers of the voting process admit there is a public health risk, is it reasonable for the public to waive any possibility of the organisers being accountable for not providing alternative means to vote. Personally, I think that the rally in question in my original post is entirely accountable for the public health consequences as they have admitted there is a risk. That risk would not exist if the rally did not. The buck has to stop somewhere, surely.

Voting will be really difficult. Spacing out voting booths is one issue but there’s normally significant queues. Potential for pushing postal votes more for the elderly and vulnerable.

[Digby]

The voting taking place this last week in the US was a disgrace, there's clearly little to no respect for voters, nor those the voters might make ill, nor those who might be required to treat those who fall ill. I'm frankly loathe to suggest there's even little respect for the voters. That I've heard it's the GOP playing silly buggers, but I wouldn't be surprised to find there are some Dems being similarly disgusting.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Or taken through the lens of the World Wars being great levellers, from the end of the Second World War, over the last 75 years:

Winston Churchill, Harrow School, Private School, 3.5 years
Clement Attlee, Haileybury College, Private School, 6 years
Anthony Eden, Eton College, Private School, 2 years
Harold Macmillan, Eton College, Private School, 6 years
Alec Douglas-Home, Eton College, Private School, 1 year
Harold Wilson, Royds Hall Grammar School, Grammar School, 8 years
Edward Heath, Chatham House Grammar School, Grammar School, 4 years
James Callaghan, Northern Secondary School, Portsmouth, Grammar School, 3 years
Margaret Thatcher, Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School, Grammar School, 11 years
John Major, Rutlish School, Grammar School, 7 years
Tony Blair, Fettes College, Private School, 10 years
Gordon Brown, Kirkcaldy High School, Grammar School/Selective High School, 3 years
David Cameron, Eton College, Private School, 6 years
Theresa May, Holton Park Girls' Grammar School, Grammar School, 3 years
Boris Johnson, Eton College, Private School, 1 year

Privately educated - 35.5 years
Grammar (or similar) 39.5 years

So no worries that just under half the time we were (are) ruled by the 7% whose parents could afford the fees?

And the fact that the vast majority of kids went to neither of those types of schools?

I agree it's an improvement over the preceding 45 years (as that was an improvement over the preceding 179 years), but it's still appalling.

Do you still stand by your words:

Which makes bleating in about class seem a bit antiquated.

?

I do, because much of that bleating has been the politics of envy and a desire to drag everyone down to the same level. I’d much rather we have poorer children with intelligence an opportunity to achieve via similar educational opportunities that don’t look like private schools offering pity.

I'd stand by those words. There are issues around inherited wealth and entitlement, but bleating isn't much of a response even if we all like a moan. We need positive progressive policies put forwards that people will actually vote for and then have those policies sensibly enacted and followed up on. Given wealth is continuing to coalesce at the top and yet we keep voting in the Tories it's more on us that there's an issue than the Tories, either we want it this way or we don't give a shit based on our voting to date

1) Characterising any criticism of the class system with a contemptuous and insulting term such as "bleating" makes it hard to have a serious conversation.

2) You focused on the post-WW2 numbers and that still showed nearly 50% UK rule by former public school boys (hey, why not focus on the numbers this century, if you really want to be up to date?). But whichever way you look at the numbers, how you can say criticism about class is "A bit antiquated" is beyond me.

[Sandydragon]

The point being that education not birth is the key factor, and with the demise of the grammar school, social mobility slowed down.

There isn’t a rigid class system in this country. There is nothing stopping you from moving up or down the ladder. But it’s harder
To get a good start with poor education.

[Digby]

It's not just the loss of grammar schools, with the rise of the professional classes having already happened a lot of social mobility that might now be happening has already happened

[Stom]

What are your thoughts about the latest?

A bit OTT...but if someone has fallen asleep in a car, why is the first instinct to call the police? That's a pretty sad indictment of society...

[morepork]

It's just hopeless. Get him out from behind the wheel and take the keys. If he gets away go and find him later (they had his license details). How is it in any sense reasonable to shoot at any one in that situation??? There is just no justifying it. If a cop can't make the right decision in the current climate then, well, beyond help I think. Get hammered and fall asleep at the drive through should result in an amusing anecdote for the future, not a fucking funeral. Why do cops carry guns on their person if they are not skilled enough to communicate constructively with people in a completely predictable context like this?

[Puja]

What are your thoughts about the latest?

A bit OTT...but if someone has fallen asleep in a car, why is the first instinct to call the police? That's a pretty sad indictment of society...

Regardless of anything else about the situation, even if the police report that he attempted to grapple for the taser is 100% accurate [Editor's note - Beard], the undisputed fact about this case is that he was running away, unarmed, and the police decided the best course was to shoot him in the back. The calculation went on in their head that it was better to have a shot black man than an escaped black man. Just... you can't even comprehend that logic at all.

Oh, and the reason you call the police is because they're black and therefore could be a risk to you with their... sleeping.

This is the kind of thing that makes me sympathetic to the calls to defund the police and fund other emergency responses instead. This was not a criminal event that required an armed and armoured response (well, the original driving was, but that'd stopped at the point they were brought in) - it required a social worker to make sure he was okay and that he couldn't hurt anyone else (as MP says, remove the keys) with later follow up of a fine/points on licence, etc.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

The point being that education not birth is the key factor, and with the demise of the grammar school, social mobility slowed down.

There isn’t a rigid class system in this country. There is nothing stopping you from moving up or down the ladder. But it’s harder
To get a good start with poor education.

It's not just the loss of grammar schools, with the rise of the professional classes having already happened a lot of social mobility that might now be happening has already happened

I'd ask for some evidence to back that up, but I just can't be arsed.

Your bleating that there's no class problem in the UK is getting a bit antiquated, you see.

[Sandydragon]

What are your thoughts about the latest?

A bit OTT...but if someone has fallen asleep in a car, why is the first instinct to call the police? That's a pretty sad indictment of society...

Regardless of anything else about the situation, even if the police report that he attempted to grapple for the taser is 100% accurate [Editor's note - Beard], the undisputed fact about this case is that he was running away, unarmed, and the police decided the best course was to shoot him in the back. The calculation went on in their head that it was better to have a shot black man than an escaped black man. Just... you can't even comprehend that logic at all.

Oh, and the reason you call the police is because they're black and therefore could be a risk to you with their... sleeping.

This is the kind of thing that makes me sympathetic to the calls to defund the police and fund other emergency responses instead. This was not a criminal event that required an armed and armoured response (well, the original driving was, but that'd stopped at the point they were brought in) - it required a social worker to make sure he was okay and that he couldn't hurt anyone else (as MP says, remove the keys) with later follow up of a fine/points on licence, etc.

Puja

Calling the police shouldn't be an issue. I have no idea why it became violent but lethal force should not have been used unless there was a threat to life. Again, we don't know all the facts but the initial impression isn't a good one.

[Sandydragon]

The point being that education not birth is the key factor, and with the demise of the grammar school, social mobility slowed down.

There isn’t a rigid class system in this country. There is nothing stopping you from moving up or down the ladder. But it’s harder
To get a good start with poor education.

It's not just the loss of grammar schools, with the rise of the professional classes having already happened a lot of social mobility that might now be happening has already happened

I'd ask for some evidence to back that up, but I just can't be arsed.

Your bleating that there's no class problem in the UK is getting a bit antiquated, you see.

Oh the irony.

[Puja]

What are your thoughts about the latest?

A bit OTT...but if someone has fallen asleep in a car, why is the first instinct to call the police? That's a pretty sad indictment of society...

Regardless of anything else about the situation, even if the police report that he attempted to grapple for the taser is 100% accurate [Editor's note - Beard], the undisputed fact about this case is that he was running away, unarmed, and the police decided the best course was to shoot him in the back. The calculation went on in their head that it was better to have a shot black man than an escaped black man. Just... you can't even comprehend that logic at all.

Oh, and the reason you call the police is because they're black and therefore could be a risk to you with their... sleeping.

This is the kind of thing that makes me sympathetic to the calls to defund the police and fund other emergency responses instead. This was not a criminal event that required an armed and armoured response (well, the original driving was, but that'd stopped at the point they were brought in) - it required a social worker to make sure he was okay and that he couldn't hurt anyone else (as MP says, remove the keys) with later follow up of a fine/points on licence, etc.

Puja

Calling the police shouldn't be an issue. I have no idea why it became violent but lethal force should not have been used unless there was a threat to life. Again, we don't know all the facts but the initial impression isn't a good one.

Why do you need a policeman to respond to a report of someone sleeping in a car in a car park?

Puja

[morepork]

You don't. There is no excuse for this. None.

[Digby]

The point being that education not birth is the key factor, and with the demise of the grammar school, social mobility slowed down.

There isn’t a rigid class system in this country. There is nothing stopping you from moving up or down the ladder. But it’s harder
To get a good start with poor education.

It's not just the loss of grammar schools, with the rise of the professional classes having already happened a lot of social mobility that might now be happening has already happened

I'd ask for some evidence to back that up, but I just can't be arsed.

Your bleating that there's no class problem in the UK is getting a bit antiquated, you see.

Are you asking for evidence that there are less grammar schools, that there's less social mobility, or both? I'd have thought both would be obvious. What's going to be harder to measure to the capability of those still left behind to still rise up, but it does seems fairly obvious it's going to be harder to advance those still at the bottom on average than was the case before the rise of the professional classes.

[cashead]

Regardless of anything else about the situation, even if the police report that he attempted to grapple for the taser is 100% accurate [Editor's note - Beard], the undisputed fact about this case is that he was running away, unarmed, and the police decided the best course was to shoot him in the back. The calculation went on in their head that it was better to have a shot black man than an escaped black man. Just... you can't even comprehend that logic at all.

Oh, and the reason you call the police is because they're black and therefore could be a risk to you with their... sleeping.

This is the kind of thing that makes me sympathetic to the calls to defund the police and fund other emergency responses instead. This was not a criminal event that required an armed and armoured response (well, the original driving was, but that'd stopped at the point they were brought in) - it required a social worker to make sure he was okay and that he couldn't hurt anyone else (as MP says, remove the keys) with later follow up of a fine/points on licence, etc.

Puja

Calling the police shouldn't be an issue. I have no idea why it became violent but lethal force should not have been used unless there was a threat to life. Again, we don't know all the facts but the initial impression isn't a good one.

Why do you need a policeman to respond to a report of someone sleeping in a car in a car park?

Puja

You don't, unless they're there to drop him off at home, or put him somewhere safe to sleep it off. They definitely didn't need to try to cuff him, which, IMO, was the point of no return.

[morepork]

[Sandydragon]

Regardless of anything else about the situation, even if the police report that he attempted to grapple for the taser is 100% accurate [Editor's note - Beard], the undisputed fact about this case is that he was running away, unarmed, and the police decided the best course was to shoot him in the back. The calculation went on in their head that it was better to have a shot black man than an escaped black man. Just... you can't even comprehend that logic at all.

Oh, and the reason you call the police is because they're black and therefore could be a risk to you with their... sleeping.

This is the kind of thing that makes me sympathetic to the calls to defund the police and fund other emergency responses instead. This was not a criminal event that required an armed and armoured response (well, the original driving was, but that'd stopped at the point they were brought in) - it required a social worker to make sure he was okay and that he couldn't hurt anyone else (as MP says, remove the keys) with later follow up of a fine/points on licence, etc.

Puja

Calling the police shouldn't be an issue. I have no idea why it became violent but lethal force should not have been used unless there was a threat to life. Again, we don't know all the facts but the initial impression isn't a good one.

Why do you need a policeman to respond to a report of someone sleeping in a car in a car park?

Puja

If the restaurant was concerned, then who else do they call? The car was blocking the drive through.

The driver appeared to be drunk and was tested with the breathalyser. He failed that test. The police officers then had reasonable suspicion that he had driven whilst intoxicated and tried to arrest him. Unless you condone drunk driving, this is acceptable.

Shooting him whilst he was running away is not acceptable.