RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:So research equals reading an article on counter punch, regurgitating it without though and then getting stroppy whn challenged?

Gotta love the arrogance.

Not quite all. don’t forget misrepresenting what the article actually says. Probably with the confidence that no one is really going to read it.

Stones of granite wrote: Probably with the confidence that no one is really going to read it.

A rare piece of logical thinking on his part if true, still, credit where it's due and all that

So Labour are to announce they're in favour of the EU customs union if not single market, a move which might be 'cause Dear Leader™ seen the light on the customs union (if not the single market) or might be 'cause if they can get enough pro European Tory MPs to vote country not party we might have another general election

I don't know who Labour just sent to speak on the Today programme but his attempts to explain why they wanted to stay in a customs union and not the single market were so bad they might even have done better to send Diane Abbott (it would cost... about...)

Daft as Labour do have reasons, and whilst I don't agree with them he might as well have been honest about them.

Digby wrote:So Labour are to announce they're in favour of the EU customs union if not single market, a move which might be 'cause Dear Leader™ seen the light on the customs union (if not the single market) or might be 'cause if they can get enough pro European Tory MPs to vote country not party we might have another general election

I suspect th latter. Corbyn is as anti EU as the most rabid Tory eurosceptic. This change of heart is more about undermining May than any serious convictions.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:So Labour are to announce they're in favour of the EU customs union if not single market, a move which might be 'cause Dear Leader™ seen the light on the customs union (if not the single market) or might be 'cause if they can get enough pro European Tory MPs to vote country not party we might have another general election

I suspect th latter. Corbyn is as anti EU as the most rabid Tory eurosceptic. This change of heart is more about undermining May than any serious convictions.

Yet they're both anti-EU in very different ways...and that is important.

I, for example, am actually relatively anti-EU. I feel like the UK was the only country who could have exited the EU and made a difference. But the way it has gone down is appalling. The EU is a corrupt, inefficient body who has many safeguards and funding regimes that better the lives of millions of people. Getting rid of the former but keeping the latter could have been incredible. As it is, we'll never get that.

Dr Fox’s warning at a speech in central London came a day after Jeremy Corbyn unveiled a shift in his party’s policy, confirming Labour will back a “new and comprehensive” UK-EU customs union to ensure tariff-free trade after Brexit.

But Dr Fox’s speech was immediately overshadowed on Tuesday as his call for leaving the customs union – in favour of striking free trade deals – was described by a former top civil servant in his department as like “giving up a three-course meal for the promise of a packet of crisps”.

Sir Martin Donnelly, who left his role as permanent secretary at the Department of International Trade last year, said 60 per cent of UK trade is either with the EU or the countries it has trade agreements with, and that any divergence from Brussels rules would deal a blow to British services which would not be compensated for through deals with nations like the US

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30266.html

Could have put that up in the Brexit thread. But seeing as Fox is now trolling the CBI and other business interests it's amusing to consider the areas it's now hard to run on as a Tory, business, prisons, military, education, health, police, local government, maybe even the countryside with Gove's proposed new farmer payments, which leaves them housing where no one is going to think they're doing a good job, the environment which would be similar, nationalism and not being Corbyn.

Fwiw I happen to agree there should be a big shift in farming subsidies from production to custodial arrangements, but a great many farmers will resent not being paid to farm even apart from change is always popular.

Digby wrote:Could have put that up in the Brexit thread. But seeing as Fox is now trolling the CBI and other business interests it's amusing to consider the areas it's now hard to run on as a Tory, business, prisons, military, education, health, police, local government, maybe even the countryside with Gove's proposed new farmer payments, which leaves them housing where no one is going to think they're doing a good job, the environment which would be similar, nationalism and not being Corbyn.

Fwiw I happen to agree there should be a big shift in farming subsidies from production to custodial arrangements, but a great many farmers will resent not being paid to farm even apart from change is always popular.

Its bizarre how a return to the 1960/70's without even a manufacturing base is seemingly the way forward in a lot of people's minds. For those who weren't around, it was a horror show, forcing my dad's emigration and subsequent death- someone who built things, was forced out of the country through a punitive tax regime.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:Could have put that up in the Brexit thread. But seeing as Fox is now trolling the CBI and other business interests it's amusing to consider the areas it's now hard to run on as a Tory, business, prisons, military, education, health, police, local government, maybe even the countryside with Gove's proposed new farmer payments, which leaves them housing where no one is going to think they're doing a good job, the environment which would be similar, nationalism and not being Corbyn.

Fwiw I happen to agree there should be a big shift in farming subsidies from production to custodial arrangements, but a great many farmers will resent not being paid to farm even apart from change is always popular.

Its bizarre how a return to the 1960/70's without even a manufacturing base is seemingly the way forward in a lot of people's minds. For those who weren't around, it was a horror show, forcing my dad's emigration and subsequent death- someone who built things, was forced out of the country through a punitive tax regime.

Don't forget we'll be free to trade with Peru like never before, and we'll be free of wagon loads of regulation, we can't yet be told what regulation nor how in practice that might change things, but stuff will happen, dynamic stuff even

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:Could have put that up in the Brexit thread. But seeing as Fox is now trolling the CBI and other business interests it's amusing to consider the areas it's now hard to run on as a Tory, business, prisons, military, education, health, police, local government, maybe even the countryside with Gove's proposed new farmer payments, which leaves them housing where no one is going to think they're doing a good job, the environment which would be similar, nationalism and not being Corbyn.

Fwiw I happen to agree there should be a big shift in farming subsidies from production to custodial arrangements, but a great many farmers will resent not being paid to farm even apart from change is always popular.

Its bizarre how a return to the 1960/70's without even a manufacturing base is seemingly the way forward in a lot of people's minds. For those who weren't around, it was a horror show, forcing my dad's emigration and subsequent death- someone who built things, was forced out of the country through a punitive tax regime.

Don't forget we'll be free to trade with Peru like never before, and we'll be free of wagon loads of regulation, we can't yet be told what regulation nor how in practice that might change things, but stuff will happen, dynamic stuff even

yes true, that is also bollocks. We are trapped between two sets of bollocks. As it were.

just when you thought Boris couldn't be any more of a pillock.........

and to think he was so key in strengthening the Leave vote. FFS

Banquo wrote:just when you thought Boris couldn't be any more of a pillock.........

and to think he was so key in strengthening the Leave vote. FFS

Apart from anything else one can only admire how has was supposedly on the fence so long and then veered all the way across and immediately told 50% how wrong they were and continue to be. One has to assume how Boris is behaving is how he thinks he needs to behave to meet his most important target, that he become PM, though his behaviour seems daft, and he's already bottled one election just 'cause Gove was mean to him, it's not the stuff of legend.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:just when you thought Boris couldn't be any more of a pillock.........

and to think he was so key in strengthening the Leave vote. FFS

Apart from anything else one can only admire how has was supposedly on the fence so long and then veered all the way across and immediately told 50% how wrong they were and continue to be. One has to assume how Boris is behaving is how he thinks he needs to behave to meet his most important target, that he become PM, though his behaviour seems daft, and he's already bottled one election just 'cause Gove was mean to him, it's not the stuff of legend.

Boris is contemptible. I understand that many people weren’t firmly on one side or the other for a long time, I include myself in that. But the Damascean conversion he is supposed to have which led him to basically lie through his teeth wears a bit thin when it’s blatently obvious that he was only interested in taking the position that would most further his leadership ambitions. Utter cnut.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:just when you thought Boris couldn't be any more of a pillock.........

and to think he was so key in strengthening the Leave vote. FFS

Apart from anything else one can only admire how has was supposedly on the fence so long and then veered all the way across and immediately told 50% how wrong they were and continue to be. One has to assume how Boris is behaving is how he thinks he needs to behave to meet his most important target, that he become PM, though his behaviour seems daft, and he's already bottled one election just 'cause Gove was mean to him, it's not the stuff of legend.

Boris is contemptible. I understand that many people weren’t firmly on one side or the other for a long time, I include myself in that. But the Damascean conversion he is supposed to have which led him to basically lie through his teeth wears a bit thin when it’s blatently obvious that he was only interested in taking the position that would most further his leadership ambitions. Utter cnut.

This. I think he should be in the Tower of London for treason. I’m almost serious.

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:
Apart from anything else one can only admire how has was supposedly on the fence so long and then veered all the way across and immediately told 50% how wrong they were and continue to be. One has to assume how Boris is behaving is how he thinks he needs to behave to meet his most important target, that he become PM, though his behaviour seems daft, and he's already bottled one election just 'cause Gove was mean to him, it's not the stuff of legend.

Boris is contemptible. I understand that many people weren’t firmly on one side or the other for a long time, I include myself in that. But the Damascean conversion he is supposed to have which led him to basically lie through his teeth wears a bit thin when it’s blatently obvious that he was only interested in taking the position that would most further his leadership ambitions. Utter cnut.

This. I think he should be in the Tower of London for treason. I’m almost serious.

I'd stick Farage, Corbyn, McDonnell and Rees-Mogg in there with him as a point to politicians at large to stop fucking about.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Boris is contemptible. I understand that many people weren’t firmly on one side or the other for a long time, I include myself in that. But the Damascean conversion he is supposed to have which led him to basically lie through his teeth wears a bit thin when it’s blatently obvious that he was only interested in taking the position that would most further his leadership ambitions. Utter cnut.

This. I think he should be in the Tower of London for treason. I’m almost serious.

I'd stick Farage, Corbyn, McDonnell and Rees-Mogg in there with him as a point to politicians at large to stop fucking about.

True. And torture them until they repent on £350mil, sovereignty, and leaving the EU being good as it allows state intervention.

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote: This. I think he should be in the Tower of London for treason. I’m almost serious.

I'd stick Farage, Corbyn, McDonnell and Rees-Mogg in there with him as a point to politicians at large to stop fucking about.

True. And torture them until they repent on £350mil, sovereignty, and leaving the EU being good as it allows state intervention.

If there was ever a case for tightening up campaigning rules on little white lies, thats it My understanding is that a party couldn't publish a lie that blatant in a general election, but those rules didn't apply to the referendum. Not sure if that is accurate, but there should be some means where someone is telling fibs so obviously that they are rebuked by the Electoral Commission during the campaign.

If it were advertising for any other product, it would be deemed misleading.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: I'd stick Farage, Corbyn, McDonnell and Rees-Mogg in there with him as a point to politicians at large to stop fucking about.

True. And torture them until they repent on £350mil, sovereignty, and leaving the EU being good as it allows state intervention.

If there was ever a case for tightening up campaigning rules on little white lies, thats it My understanding is that a party couldn't publish a lie that blatant in a general election, but those rules didn't apply to the referendum. Not sure if that is accurate, but there should be some means where someone is telling fibs so obviously that they are rebuked by the Electoral Commission during the campaign.

If it were advertising for any other product, it would be deemed misleading.

It wasn't a party as such though; that's a core problem with the whole thing, people voted for a concept with nobody who would be accountable for implementing it. It then became a hospital pass for May and the tories to sort out, which they have utterly failed at

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote: True. And torture them until they repent on £350mil, sovereignty, and leaving the EU being good as it allows state intervention.

If there was ever a case for tightening up campaigning rules on little white lies, thats it My understanding is that a party couldn't publish a lie that blatant in a general election, but those rules didn't apply to the referendum. Not sure if that is accurate, but there should be some means where someone is telling fibs so obviously that they are rebuked by the Electoral Commission during the campaign.

If it were advertising for any other product, it would be deemed misleading.

It wasn't a party as such though; that's a core problem with the whole thing, people voted for a concept with nobody who would be accountable for implementing it. It then became a hospital pass for May and the tories to sort out, which they have utterly failed at

Boris did represent the official leave campaign group. Farage and his merry gang were all a recognised political grouping taking part in the campaign. Certainly for the official campaigns, the funding they got had to come with responsibilities.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: If there was ever a case for tightening up campaigning rules on little white lies, thats it My understanding is that a party couldn't publish a lie that blatant in a general election, but those rules didn't apply to the referendum. Not sure if that is accurate, but there should be some means where someone is telling fibs so obviously that they are rebuked by the Electoral Commission during the campaign.

If it were advertising for any other product, it would be deemed misleading.

It wasn't a party as such though; that's a core problem with the whole thing, people voted for a concept with nobody who would be accountable for implementing it. It then became a hospital pass for May and the tories to sort out, which they have utterly failed at

Boris did represent the official leave campaign group. Farage and his merry gang were all a recognised political grouping taking part in the campaign. Certainly for the official campaigns, the funding they got had to come with responsibilities.

But no way of formally holding them to account, that's my point. I don't deny they should be 'rebuked', but as they don't exist any more, its a bit pointless- and in fairness, Farage wasn't any part of the £350m thing as his campaign was rejected as being official. It was all a fallacious concept, since they could literally say what they wanted, knowing that someone else would have to make it happen (they didn't believe they'd win in the first place though).

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote: It wasn't a party as such though; that's a core problem with the whole thing, people voted for a concept with nobody who would be accountable for implementing it. It then became a hospital pass for May and the tories to sort out, which they have utterly failed at

Boris did represent the official leave campaign group. Farage and his merry gang were all a recognised political grouping taking part in the campaign. Certainly for the official campaigns, the funding they got had to come with responsibilities.

But no way of formally holding them to account, that's my point. I don't deny they should be 'rebuked', but as they don't exist any more, its a bit pointless- and in fairness, Farage wasn't any part of the £350m thing as his campaign was rejected as being official.

Aye, it was the official leave campaign that should have been rebuked. If there was a way to speed up the assessment then their claim could have been countered t the time rather than take action later when frankly its a bit too late.

It also didn't help that the remain campaign was a mess.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Boris did represent the official leave campaign group. Farage and his merry gang were all a recognised political grouping taking part in the campaign. Certainly for the official campaigns, the funding they got had to come with responsibilities.

But no way of formally holding them to account, that's my point. I don't deny they should be 'rebuked', but as they don't exist any more, its a bit pointless- and in fairness, Farage wasn't any part of the £350m thing as his campaign was rejected as being official.

Aye, it was the official leave campaign that should have been rebuked. If there was a way to speed up the assessment then their claim could have been countered t the time rather than take action later when frankly its a bit too late.

It also didn't help that the remain campaign was a mess.

It was, but it had more acccountability as it was Tory/govt policy (which is often forgotten). It was theirs to lose....and they did!

Read an article in a dutch newspaper today talking about British politics and the love British politicians have for rhetoric... And right at the end, a clear and unfortunate comparison made by saying that Theresa May doesn't fit with this great tradition as she has not managed to get any further than 'Brexit is Brexit'.

Scathing.

Ken Loach advocates kicking out any Labour MPs who make a stand against anti-Semitism. Proving once again there's no problem on the left of the Labour party and it's all a media ploy to get at the Glorious Leader™