RugbyRebels

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: No. It is precisely true. No one forced them to promise it. They could have given the answer anyone else would have when a delivery is due - we have an order and the expected date of delivery is X, or we expect it to arrive in the next few days.
The country may need good news, but it doesn't need false hope. How much good does it do, to reduce the people's confidence in their government's ability to achieve vital things, if they fail in such a visible way? It was totally unnecessary. I blame the media for many things, but not for this. You say the supplier was full of BS. Maybe, but this "nudge" has left people with the impression that the government is full of BS.

‘Precisely true’....if you say so.

OK, I can't say it more clearly. We'll just have to disagree on that point.

So, related points: Do you think it was wise to promise something they couldn't deliver? Do you think this broken promise has reduced public confidence in the government? Do you think it's good for the public to have reduced confidence in their government at this time?

That is all precisely true.

Dominic Cummings and Ben Warner, a vote leave data cruncher, have been attending SAGE. No Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, or of Wales or NI. Nobody who is a Director of Public Health anywhere in the UK.

So no room for actual experts, but room for people with no scientific training. The idea that our politicians have been making policy on the interpretations of the data from Cummings rather than the actual data from medical professionals is a scandal.

The response from no. 10.

It may be that more scandalous things are happening.

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canta_brian wrote:Dominic Cummings and Ben Warner, a vote leave data cruncher, have been attending SAGE. No Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, or of Wales or NI. Nobody who is a Director of Public Health anywhere in the UK.

So no room for actual experts, but room for people with no scientific training. The idea that our politicians have been making policy on the interpretations of the data from Cummings rather than the actual data from medical professionals is a scandal.

How do you know there is "no room for actual experts"? Has that been stated somewhere?

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Donny osmond wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Dominic Cummings and Ben Warner, a vote leave data cruncher, have been attending SAGE. No Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, or of Wales or NI. Nobody who is a Director of Public Health anywhere in the UK.

So no room for actual experts, but room for people with no scientific training. The idea that our politicians have been making policy on the interpretations of the data from Cummings rather than the actual data from medical professionals is a scandal.

How do you know there is "no room for actual experts"? Has that been stated somewhere?

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There have been experts involved in Sage all along. And it’s not unreasonable that the PMs advisor should attend.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:
It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

Sandy, seriously is there anything you'd hold this government to account for? It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday. And then again on Monday. No one forced them to promise a particular amount on a particular day. They could easily have given an honest answer, which is we have an order for X, which we expect to arrive in the next few days.

Yes, this is not in itself the worst thing the government has done, by a long way, but please don't blame this one on the media.

Yes the failure to prepare properly when this first hit the headlines. As I’ve pointed out in this thread if you care to look.

Where I’m more sympathetic is where the media is whipping up excitement over operational issues like this where the government is trying to do the right thing but was let down because of reasons outside of its control.

You can’t tell the press that you think the shipment is due for Sunday, they will have a field day speculating on why you can’t give a solid answer. Reality is that the media expect the undeliverable most of the time and the politicians don’t give a straight answer because of it.

On this occasion we got let down by a Turkish supplier. It happens.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

Sandy, seriously is there anything you'd hold this government to account for? It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday. And then again on Monday. No one forced them to promise a particular amount on a particular day. They could easily have given an honest answer, which is we have an order for X, which we expect to arrive in the next few days.

Yes, this is not in itself the worst thing the government has done, by a long way, but please don't blame this one on the media.

Yes the failure to prepare properly when this first hit the headlines. As I’ve pointed out in this thread if you care to look.

Where I’m more sympathetic is where the media is whipping up excitement over operational issues like this where the government is trying to do the right thing but was let down because of reasons outside of its control.

You can’t tell the press that you think the shipment is due for Sunday, they will have a field day speculating on why you can’t give a solid answer. Reality is that the media expect the undeliverable most of the time and the politicians don’t give a straight answer because of it.

On this occasion we got let down by a Turkish supplier. It happens.

I'm interested in the concept of them promising delivery on a certain date... did they actually say that? How did they tell us, did they say we guarantee? We promise? What was the wording they used to say a shipment was expected by a certain date?

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Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: No. It is precisely true. No one forced them to promise it. They could have given the answer anyone else would have when a delivery is due - we have an order and the expected date of delivery is X, or we expect it to arrive in the next few days.
The country may need good news, but it doesn't need false hope. How much good does it do, to reduce the people's confidence in their government's ability to achieve vital things, if they fail in such a visible way? It was totally unnecessary. I blame the media for many things, but not for this. You say the supplier was full of BS. Maybe, but this "nudge" has left people with the impression that the government is full of BS.

‘Precisely true’....if you say so.

OK, I can't say it more clearly. We'll just have to disagree on that point.

So, related points: Do you think it was wise to promise something they couldn't deliver? Do you think this broken promise has reduced public confidence in the government? Do you think it's good for the public to have reduced confidence in their government at this time?

If it’s important to have confidence in the government at this time does the press have a responsibility to probe the real issues and not make hay with that which is outside the governments control?

I’ll repeat an earlier point I made. I didn’t vote for this government and I don’t like it’s cabinet or policies. Just to be clear. But this isn’t an ordinary political situation and the media is operating as if those giving the briefings aren’t working crazily long hours trying to keep on top of a situation where the experts can’t agree. They are human. Bear that in mind. Most are also working remotely trying to operate in a way they aren’t used to. It’s easy to criticise and that’s what winds me up is people who don’t have a clue who busy the system is at the moment having potshots just because it isn’t perfect.

I’m also sure that the witch hunt at the end of this dressed up as an enquiry will be media sport. Whilst mistakes have been made, the media will none the less expect everyone to have acted in a way that just isn’t possible. So yes we can blame the media for expecting something which no one can deliver.

Donny osmond wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Sandy, seriously is there anything you'd hold this government to account for? It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday. And then again on Monday. No one forced them to promise a particular amount on a particular day. They could easily have given an honest answer, which is we have an order for X, which we expect to arrive in the next few days.

Yes, this is not in itself the worst thing the government has done, by a long way, but please don't blame this one on the media.

Yes the failure to prepare properly when this first hit the headlines. As I’ve pointed out in this thread if you care to look.

Where I’m more sympathetic is where the media is whipping up excitement over operational issues like this where the government is trying to do the right thing but was let down because of reasons outside of its control.

You can’t tell the press that you think the shipment is due for Sunday, they will have a field day speculating on why you can’t give a solid answer. Reality is that the media expect the undeliverable most of the time and the politicians don’t give a straight answer because of it.

On this occasion we got let down by a Turkish supplier. It happens.

I'm interested in the concept of them promising delivery on a certain date... did they actually say that? How did they tell us, did they say we guarantee? We promise? What was the wording they used to say a shipment was expected by a certain date?

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Jenrick made the following statement:

'Today I can report that a very large consignment of PPE is due to arrive in the UK tomorrow from Turkey, which amounts to 84 tonnes of PPE and will include for example, 400,000 gowns - so a very significant additional shipment.

Sandydragon wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Yes the failure to prepare properly when this first hit the headlines. As I’ve pointed out in this thread if you care to look.

Where I’m more sympathetic is where the media is whipping up excitement over operational issues like this where the government is trying to do the right thing but was let down because of reasons outside of its control.

You can’t tell the press that you think the shipment is due for Sunday, they will have a field day speculating on why you can’t give a solid answer. Reality is that the media expect the undeliverable most of the time and the politicians don’t give a straight answer because of it.

On this occasion we got let down by a Turkish supplier. It happens.

I'm interested in the concept of them promising delivery on a certain date... did they actually say that? How did they tell us, did they say we guarantee? We promise? What was the wording they used to say a shipment was expected by a certain date?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Jenrick made the following statement:

'Today I can report that a very large consignment of PPE is due to arrive in the UK tomorrow from Turkey, which amounts to 84 tonnes of PPE and will include for example, 400,000 gowns - so a very significant additional shipment.

Cheers, I thought as much. Not a promise at all, just a conveyance of what they have been told by the suppliers. So SoM is upset about a broken promise that was never made anywhere except in his head.

Which kinda feeds into the below poll from you gov. Responses to the govts handling are pre determined by voting record.

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To be fair, much of the media has also overreacted, hence my point below.

canta_brian wrote:Dominic Cummings and Ben Warner, a vote leave data cruncher, have been attending SAGE. No Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, or of Wales or NI. Nobody who is a Director of Public Health anywhere in the UK.

So no room for actual experts, but room for people with no scientific training. The idea that our politicians have been making policy on the interpretations of the data from Cummings rather than the actual data from medical professionals is a scandal.

What is the make up of SAGE for this pandemic then? I genuinely don't know, other than I think Whitty chairs it (he has done for most of the previous SAGE gatherings before this) . He appears to have a modicum of scientific training as an aside.

Banquo wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Dominic Cummings and Ben Warner, a vote leave data cruncher, have been attending SAGE. No Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, or of Wales or NI. Nobody who is a Director of Public Health anywhere in the UK.

So no room for actual experts, but room for people with no scientific training. The idea that our politicians have been making policy on the interpretations of the data from Cummings rather than the actual data from medical professionals is a scandal.

What is the make up of SAGE for this pandemic then? I genuinely don't know, other than I think Whitty chairs it (he has done for most of the previous SAGE gatherings before this) . He appears to have a modicum of scientific training as an aside.

It’s another non story. Membership for some reason is published, except for the chairman. The government website does state that it’s made up of relevant scientific experts. I assume that may change depending on the subject matter.

That others attend SAGE isn’t a surprise. SAGE offers advice to politicians who make the final decision. Political representative on that committee makes sense in that the final decision must include other factors which are not strictly scientific, such as economics. Cummins because of the odious little twat that he is is of course hated by the press (not without good reason). But his (or one of his staffs) presence at this group isn’t that odd when you consider how government has to function. If the Prime Ministers chief advisor was less of a polarising figure then this wouldn’t make the press. However. Because Cummins has a history of trying to manipulate them of course it does.

And just to follow up on my last post, SAGE is reporting into COBRA for the management of this crisis and there are scientific experts drafted into the latter committee because of the nature of this crisis. Whilst the final decision making is political, there is plenty of scientific advice provided.

Sandydragon wrote: must include other factors which are not strictly scientific, such as economics.

You're now dead to me!

Are SAGE meetings normally published, and are they now as an aside? If not the full minutes then a reasonably detailed synopsis.

It would help as a further aside if the media wouldn't always try to ramp up stories and/or use sensationalist headlines, but it'd help too if people in or speaking for a government wouldn't say public confidence in the media has collapsed during this emergency

Digby wrote:It would help as a further aside if the media wouldn't always try to ramp up stories and/or use sensationalist headlines, but it'd help too if people in or speaking for a government wouldn't say public confidence in the media has collapsed during this emergency

This is the unhealthy relationship between politicians and the media. The latter assume the former are always lying to them (with good reason) whilst the former are constantly trying to sell news ina competitive market and want a front page that sells.

To call it dysfunctional is an understatement.

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: must include other factors which are not strictly scientific, such as economics.

You're now dead to me!

Are SAGE meetings normally published, and are they now as an aside? If not the full minutes then a reasonably detailed synopsis.

I believe the minutes are published. I’ve read some, somewhere, and I’m sure it was SAGE.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: must include other factors which are not strictly scientific, such as economics.

You're now dead to me!

Are SAGE meetings normally published, and are they now as an aside? If not the full minutes then a reasonably detailed synopsis.

I believe the minutes are published. I’ve read some, somewhere, and I’m sure it was SAGE.

I had in mind they were published but had heard, possibly incorrectly, they weren't being presently. Of course this might just mean they're always published with some established delay to allow for debate

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: must include other factors which are not strictly scientific, such as economics.

You're now dead to me!

Are SAGE meetings normally published, and are they now as an aside? If not the full minutes then a reasonably detailed synopsis.

I believe the minutes are published. I’ve read some, somewhere, and I’m sure it was SAGE.

If you look on the govt website, all is revealed . Though I think they publish minute some time after the event (s). There will be things that they likely don't want published- for example, the no lockdown scenario of 500k ++ deaths. I keep hearing things like we should trust the public ( e.g.not to panic) but I'm not sure trusting the general public to behave sensibly has had much success in recent years!

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:
You're now dead to me!

Are SAGE meetings normally published, and are they now as an aside? If not the full minutes then a reasonably detailed synopsis.

I believe the minutes are published. I’ve read some, somewhere, and I’m sure it was SAGE.

If you look on the govt website, all is revealed . Though I think they publish minute some time after the event (s). There will be things that they likely don't want published- for example, the no lockdown scenario of 500k ++ deaths. I keep hearing things like we should trust the public ( e.g.not to panic) but I'm not sure trusting the general public to behave sensibly has had much success in recent years!

Some discussions need to be in private. You can’t have an honest debate if every word will be in the media the day afterwards.

Sandydragon wrote:Jenrick made the following statement:

'Today I can report that a very large consignment of PPE is due to arrive in the UK tomorrow from Turkey, which amounts to 84 tonnes of PPE and will include for example, 400,000 gowns - so a very significant additional shipment.

Well done finding the quote - I hadn't been able to find the exact words.

Agreed then - there was no promise, so no overpromising. The media took this one too far.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Jenrick made the following statement:

'Today I can report that a very large consignment of PPE is due to arrive in the UK tomorrow from Turkey, which amounts to 84 tonnes of PPE and will include for example, 400,000 gowns - so a very significant additional shipment.

Well done finding the quote - I hadn't been able to find the exact words.

Agreed then - there was no promise, so no overpromising. The media took this one too far.

It took a long while to find that; almost all of the coverage is basically outrage.

Looks like they have shifted target now onto Dominic Cummings who is an easily hat able figure at the best of times.

In fairness Cummings is easy to hate at the worst of times too.

No small part of this is whoever is in charge is going to get a lot of blame, that's just how it is. If you don't want people complaining you're not doing enough, that you're making or have made mistakes and not delivering on pronouncements then don't ask for the job of being in parliament and still more the government. It's a given people in these roles should be working hard, mostly nobody is going to thank your for that and that doesn't concern me, we shouldn't venerate our leaders, we should always be demanding more

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Jenrick made the following statement:

'Today I can report that a very large consignment of PPE is due to arrive in the UK tomorrow from Turkey, which amounts to 84 tonnes of PPE and will include for example, 400,000 gowns - so a very significant additional shipment.

Well done finding the quote - I hadn't been able to find the exact words.

Agreed then - there was no promise, so no overpromising. The media took this one too far.

It took a long while to find that; almost all of the coverage is basically outrage.

Looks like they have shifted target now onto Dominic Cummings who is an easily hat able figure at the best of times.

The Mail was particularly bad, turning the quote into this:

A 'very large consignment' of PPE - including 400,000 gowns - will arrive in the UK from Turkey today, Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick announced at Saturday's government briefing