New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Danno]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... gz2v5nz5qo

Ted Hill binned, Ewels and AOF called up.

I fail to see the logic in any of this.

There's surely some excellent stats records on the line now!

If AOF and Dan Cole come on together will that be the biggest age gap between two props at international level? 17 years, Dan's nearly old enough to be his dad.

Nearly?

[Puja]

Jacques Vermeulen not eligible for England: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 892wn9j3go

Apparently, one of his SA U20 games was in the category where it captured him for them (because it was officially their 2nd XV and played against another team who had their U20s as their 2nd XV), and therefore he can't swap nationalities on a residency basis. I do have a lot of sympathy for him, because the eligibility rules which allowed U20s to be captured were an inconsistent and unfair nonsense and it would be far more sensible to wipe the historical captures and apply the current rules retroactively.

However, I will admit to being a little bit glad that he can't be picked for England, cause there was so much press about "Vermeulen is going to be eligible for England this season!" and "Vermeulen's injury rules him out of contention for the EPS!" - I don't know if Seeking Backrows was ever actually interested (although I suspect EJones would've been), but to my mind, he's the kind of player that a coach would pick because of "intangibles" and "aura" and "South Africanness" without him ever really being international quality.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

I don’t see why we’d want him to be honest. He’s a good prem player for Exeters gameplan. An honest hard working pro.

[Timbo]

From what I gather Benhard Janse Van Rensburg played in a capture game for the Boks u20 team too.

[Danno]

Presumably he's still eligible for SA, and if they aren't picking him, why should we?

[Mellsblue]

From what I gather Benhard Janse Van Rensburg played in a capture game for the Boks u20 team too.

Someone needs to tell Sloppy Backgroundchecks as alot of people seem certain he has BJVR penned in at 12 as soon as he was available.

[Puja]

From what I gather Benhard Janse Van Rensburg played in a capture game for the Boks u20 team too.

I think, although I'm damned if I understand these things correctly, that he played in 2016, when it wasn't their capture team.

I don't especially want him either, mind. I don't approve of looming over near-eligible players like vultures.

Puja

[Timbo]

From what I gather Benhard Janse Van Rensburg played in a capture game for the Boks u20 team too.

Someone needs to tell Sloppy Backgroundchecks as alot of people seem certain he has BJVR penned in at 12 as soon as he was available.

For ‘15, ‘16 & ‘17 there was this clause added to the eligibility rules;

"The Player is part of the team which participates in an International Match as part of the World Rugby Junior World Championships, World Rugby Junior World Rugby Trophy or the Six Nations U20 Championship.”

So basically for those years anyone appearing for an u20 team that was a nominated ‘capture’ team in the Junior World Cup was captured for that nation. In 2016 when BJVR was capped for the SA u20’s in the JWC their nominated capture team was the Junior Springboks (u20 team). The only way he could play for another nation is through birthright as far as I can make out.

[SDHoneymonster]

From July 1st 2014 to December 31st 2017, if you played in any match in a World Rugby sanctioned U20 tournament and the team you played for were that nation's nominated second XV, you are captured. This is the rule that captures Janse van Rensburg - he came off the bench in the third place play-off for the final few minutes against Argentina as a very late injury replacement in the squad, and even though the Baby Pumas weren't Argentina's nominated second team that snags him for the Boks. Vermeulen is snagged by this too, but even if that rule wasn't in place he featured against a capture side in the 2015 tournament in the France U20s. Hanro Liebenberg is also tied to the Boks through this. Basically, if you played for any one of France, Italy, South Africa or Wales in the JWC tournaments of 2015, 2016 or 2017, you're captured by them. If this seems spectacularly arbitrary, it's because it is.

As of 1st Jan 2018, teams were prohibited from naming age grade sides as nominated second teams, which is why Tyrone Green - who played for the Boks in the 2018 JWC - is able to qualify for England while the aforementioned three, along with Juarno Augustus (capped in the 2017 JWC) won't ever. The rule was brought in AFTER the 2014 JWC had been completed, a tournament in which both Pierre Schoeman and Duhan van der Merwe played for South Africa - remarkably, South Africa somehow avoided playing any of France, Italy or Wales, leaving those two players untied. It was written into the eligibility rules that rugby boards have a duty to convey to their players that they are capturing themselves if they're playing in a capture match, but given so few people actually seem to have a full grasp of the scope of the rules I wouldn't be surprised if some players didn't at the time; it would be almost impossible to prove though if you wanted to appeal. World Rugby probably should have offered players who had been captured some sort of amnesty when they changed the rules, because as mentioned up the thread it was an utter mess and it was ludicrous to allow teams to operate on different eligibility rules. Vermeulen is by all accounts applying for British citizenship so it'd be interesting to see what would happen if he lodged an appeal - it wouldn't be a great look for World Rugby to deny a citizen of that country the right to play for them (although of course there is no 'English' citizenship as such). With all due respect to Jacques though, who is a very good player, I'm not very sure it's worth the hassle at all though.

[SDHoneymonster]

From what I gather Benhard Janse Van Rensburg played in a capture game for the Boks u20 team too.

Someone needs to tell Sloppy Backgroundchecks as alot of people seem certain he has BJVR penned in at 12 as soon as he was available.

For ‘15, ‘16 & ‘17 there was this clause added to the eligibility rules;

"The Player is part of the team which participates in an International Match as part of the World Rugby Junior World Championships, World Rugby Junior World Rugby Trophy or the Six Nations U20 Championship.”

So basically for those years anyone appearing for an u20 team that was a nominated ‘capture’ team in the Junior World Cup was captured for that nation. In 2016 when BJVR was capped for the SA u20’s in the JWC their nominated capture team was the Junior Springboks (u20 team). The only way he could play for another nation is through birthright as far as I can make out.

If he had a parent or grandparent born elsewhere then he could still switch, but he obviously doesn't have any English ancestry as he'd already be eligible to make the switch and he'd likely have been called up by now.

[jimKRFC]

Bristol and Gloucester supposedly after Bulls tighthead Mornay Smith.

Bristols props are knocking on a bit so could do with a slightly younger one.

[Timbo]

Vermuelen & Van Rensburg definitely think/thought they weren’t captured as they’ve both given interviews talking about qualifying to play for England.

[Puja]

From what I gather Benhard Janse Van Rensburg played in a capture game for the Boks u20 team too.

Someone needs to tell Sloppy Backgroundchecks as alot of people seem certain he has BJVR penned in at 12 as soon as he was available.

For ‘15, ‘16 & ‘17 there was this clause added to the eligibility rules;

"The Player is part of the team which participates in an International Match as part of the World Rugby Junior World Championships, World Rugby Junior World Rugby Trophy or the Six Nations U20 Championship.”

So basically for those years anyone appearing for an u20 team that was a nominated ‘capture’ team in the Junior World Cup was captured for that nation. In 2016 when BJVR was capped for the SA u20’s in the JWC their nominated capture team was the Junior Springboks (u20 team). The only way he could play for another nation is through birthright as far as I can make out.

Huh. I stand corrected.

Like I said, I'm quite glad - as Danno says, if they're not good enough for South Africa, then why should we be desperate for them, especially in a position like back row where we've got so much actual English talent that's coming through. Apart from anything else, South African fandom at large and a chunk of their reporting are incredibly smug and outstandingly arrogant right now (Erasmus not WR Coach of the year because some loser Frenchman took their Olympic team from not qualifying to winning a gold medal?! CONSPIRACY! OUTRAGE! BURN DUBLIN!) and they've already been gloating about the prospect of us eyeing up their leftovers, so I can't imagine what levels they'd get to if we actually picked one of them.

It's better than it used to be with a 5 year residency rather than 3 - I can buy that someone feels a connection to the country after living here for over half a decade (as seen by Vermeulen looking to get a passport), but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth when we're actively looking at when someone is due to qualify and counting down the days.

Probably a good thing that Vermeulen has looked into it - we had a lucky escape with the Schickerling thing (and our apparent willingness to just trust him when he said he was eligible, rather than ask a single question of our own or even ask "How are you eligible?"), and I'm not hugely confident that our processes have got that much more robust since.

Puja

[SDHoneymonster]

Vermuelen & Van Rensburg definitely think/thought they weren’t captured as they’ve both given interviews talking about qualifying to play for England.

I have misgivings the players were ever adequately informed in a lot of these cases that they were capturing themselves, but we're looking at tournaments that were nearly a decade ago now - memories are almost certainly blurred and unreliable, especially on what is turning into an emotive subject and, you know, the repeated head traumas virtually every rugby player is subject to.

[SDHoneymonster]

Someone needs to tell Sloppy Backgroundchecks as alot of people seem certain he has BJVR penned in at 12 as soon as he was available.

For ‘15, ‘16 & ‘17 there was this clause added to the eligibility rules;

"The Player is part of the team which participates in an International Match as part of the World Rugby Junior World Championships, World Rugby Junior World Rugby Trophy or the Six Nations U20 Championship.”

So basically for those years anyone appearing for an u20 team that was a nominated ‘capture’ team in the Junior World Cup was captured for that nation. In 2016 when BJVR was capped for the SA u20’s in the JWC their nominated capture team was the Junior Springboks (u20 team). The only way he could play for another nation is through birthright as far as I can make out.

Huh. I stand corrected.

Like I said, I'm quite glad - as Danno says, if they're not good enough for South Africa, then why should we be desperate for them, especially in a position like back row where we've got so much actual English talent that's coming through. Apart from anything else, South African fandom at large and a chunk of their reporting are incredibly smug and outstandingly arrogant right now (Erasmus not WR Coach of the year because some loser Frenchman took their Olympic team from not qualifying to winning a gold medal?! CONSPIRACY! OUTRAGE! BURN DUBLIN!) and they've already been gloating about the prospect of us eyeing up their leftovers, so I can't imagine what levels they'd get to if we actually picked one of them.

It's better than it used to be with a 5 year residency rather than 3 - I can buy that someone feels a connection to the country after living here for over half a decade (as seen by Vermeulen looking to get a passport), but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth when we're actively looking at when someone is due to qualify and counting down the days.

Probably a good thing that Vermeulen has looked into it - we had a lucky escape with the Schickerling thing (and our apparent willingness to just trust him when he said he was eligible, rather than ask a single question of our own or even ask "How are you eligible?"), and I'm not hugely confident that our processes have got that much more robust since.

Puja

In fairness to Schickerling, World Rugby again overcomplicated the issue when they fannied about with the changeover from three to five years of residency. They extended the deadline by a year because of covid, but you then had to have been capped within a certain time frame; even if you'd already served three years, which Schickerling had, you weren't considered qualified once the deadline had passed unless you had already been capped. It's why Ireland chucked Lowe straight into the team once he qualified. Gibson-Park had qualified the previous season but was yet to be capped, so if Ireland didn't cap him when they did he'd also have had to have served at least another year I think. Schoeman was another who snuck through on that technicality. It should have been the case that World Rugby allowed any players who had already served three years by the time the deadline had passed to qualify, and apply the rule to those still in the process of qualifying or who moved to a new country from that point.

[Puja]

For ‘15, ‘16 & ‘17 there was this clause added to the eligibility rules;

"The Player is part of the team which participates in an International Match as part of the World Rugby Junior World Championships, World Rugby Junior World Rugby Trophy or the Six Nations U20 Championship.”

So basically for those years anyone appearing for an u20 team that was a nominated ‘capture’ team in the Junior World Cup was captured for that nation. In 2016 when BJVR was capped for the SA u20’s in the JWC their nominated capture team was the Junior Springboks (u20 team). The only way he could play for another nation is through birthright as far as I can make out.

Huh. I stand corrected.

Like I said, I'm quite glad - as Danno says, if they're not good enough for South Africa, then why should we be desperate for them, especially in a position like back row where we've got so much actual English talent that's coming through. Apart from anything else, South African fandom at large and a chunk of their reporting are incredibly smug and outstandingly arrogant right now (Erasmus not WR Coach of the year because some loser Frenchman took their Olympic team from not qualifying to winning a gold medal?! CONSPIRACY! OUTRAGE! BURN DUBLIN!) and they've already been gloating about the prospect of us eyeing up their leftovers, so I can't imagine what levels they'd get to if we actually picked one of them.

It's better than it used to be with a 5 year residency rather than 3 - I can buy that someone feels a connection to the country after living here for over half a decade (as seen by Vermeulen looking to get a passport), but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth when we're actively looking at when someone is due to qualify and counting down the days.

Probably a good thing that Vermeulen has looked into it - we had a lucky escape with the Schickerling thing (and our apparent willingness to just trust him when he said he was eligible, rather than ask a single question of our own or even ask "How are you eligible?"), and I'm not hugely confident that our processes have got that much more robust since.

Puja

In fairness to Schickerling, World Rugby again overcomplicated the issue when they fannied about with the changeover from three to five years of residency. They extended the deadline by a year because of covid, but you then had to have been capped within a certain time frame; even if you'd already served three years, which Schickerling had, you weren't considered qualified once the deadline had passed unless you had already been capped. It's why Ireland chucked Lowe straight into the team once he qualified. Gibson-Park had qualified the previous season but was yet to be capped, so if Ireland didn't cap him when they did he'd also have had to have served at least another year I think. Schoeman was another who snuck through on that technicality. It should have been the case that World Rugby allowed any players who had already served three years by the time the deadline had passed to qualify, and apply the rule to those still in the process of qualifying or who moved to a new country from that point.

Ah, that makes more sense. I thought he'd come to the country start of 2019, rather than late 2018, but a google tells me that's my error.

Mind, I don't think we missed out on much. Was eligible from September 2023, but seems to've gone actively backwards since that injury, barely played for Exeter and then has barely played for Glasgow.

Puja

[Stom]

As we're on the subject of imports playing for England...what are thoughts on Tyrone Green?

Obviously, would rather an Englishman for England, but he is definitely one of the best 15s available, and better, imo, than Steward or Furbank.

[Slater582]

As we're on the subject of imports playing for England...what are thoughts on Tyrone Green?

Obviously, would rather an Englishman for England, but he is definitely one of the best 15s available, and better, imo, than Steward or Furbank.

Hadn't realised he'd played for South Africa U20 also.

[Mikey Brown]

So this is just an appreciation post for Chandler Cunningham-South. There is very valid criticism of bits of his game, but he's 21 and is well on the way to being a recognised force at international level. Whether he's playing from the bench for a season or so, whatever, he is a serious talent and England need to go out of their way to make sure he is handled well.



Obviously what he's excelling at right now is the highlight reel stuff, but on top of the stamina, focus and accuracy (that he'll hopefully build on - he's already taken huge leaps) you do need players with that x-factor. Players that can bring the crowd in to a game with a ridiculous hit or carry. He's got the kind of pace, power and aggression you can't just conjure up or teach to an average player.

There's a moment in there he receives pretty nothing ball, faced with Mbongonambi, Wiese and Louw and still managed to take a vital metre on his own terms.

What I've also been really pleased with is his discipline. When he appeared at London Irish he had a bit of the young Weise/Sinkler thing I thought and was worried he'd be a bit of a liability. He seems to be incredibly composed and focused in his aggression. I have no idea what his attitude is for 'studying' the game, but he just seems to get it. This time alongside guys like Itoje and Borthwick early in his career will be great for him in the long term I think.

Anyway, a ramble but I thought some positivity might be nice. I could say a lot of that same stuff for Martin and Baxter I think. AOF too hopefully. I do feel like this dodgy period results-wise will be important down the line.

[Banquo]

So this is just an appreciation post for Chandler Cunningham-South. There is very valid criticism of bits of his game, but he's 21 and is well on the way to being a recognised force at international level. Whether he's playing from the bench for a season or so, whatever, he is a serious talent and England need to go out of their way to make sure he is handled well.



Obviously what he's excelling at right now is the highlight reel stuff, but on top of the stamina, focus and accuracy (that he'll hopefully build on - he's already taken huge leaps) you do need players with that x-factor. Players that can bring the crowd in to a game with a ridiculous hit or carry. He's got the kind of pace, power and aggression you can't just conjure up or teach to an average player.

There's a moment in there he receives pretty nothing ball, faced with Mbongonambi, Wiese and Louw and still managed to take a vital metre on his own terms.

What I've also been really pleased with is his discipline. When he appeared at London Irish he had a bit of the young Weise/Sinkler thing I thought and was worried he'd be a bit of a liability. He seems to be incredibly composed and focused in his aggression. I have no idea what his attitude is for 'studying' the game, but he just seems to get it. This time alongside guys like Itoje and Borthwick early in his career will be great for him in the long term I think.

Anyway, a ramble but I thought some positivity might be nice. I could say a lot of that same stuff for Martin and Baxter I think. AOF too hopefully. I do feel like this dodgy period results-wise will be important down the line.

thumbs up emoji. Exciting start to a test career

[p/d]

Bang on Mikey. Said from the out he is one of those player’s that is made for test rugby.

T Willis being another…….. should he get the chance.

[Danno]

Can we start capping T.Willis before he gets broken or something please. It would be great to see what he can do. Sorry Earl, but you're on the bench for a bit after the last 5ish games

[TheDasher]

As we're on the subject of imports playing for England...what are thoughts on Tyrone Green?

Obviously, would rather an Englishman for England, but he is definitely one of the best 15s available, and better, imo, than Steward or Furbank.

I can't help but agree with Puja - I don't think we want to pick any Boks, for the reasons he gives. We don't need them, I still feel that the Prem now has a lot of quality in it and will continue to churn out more.

I rate both Steward and Furbank, both have been chopped and changed around a lot and then been thrown back in, that's never easy. I like Hendy at 15, he's a wonderful player, Arundell is great at 15, he'll come back, frankly I don't mind Malins or Daly at 15 either. It's at prop (arguably hooker), lock, scrum half and centre where I think we need help, although centre options for the next few years are looking far rosier imo.

[ilovelamp]

Arthur Clarke is coming along very nicely at lock for us at Glaws. His work rate is insane and I think he’ll be capped before too long.

[Puja]

As we're on the subject of imports playing for England...what are thoughts on Tyrone Green?

Obviously, would rather an Englishman for England, but he is definitely one of the best 15s available, and better, imo, than Steward or Furbank.

I can't help but agree with Puja - I don't think we want to pick any Boks, for the reasons he gives. We don't need them, I still feel that the Prem now has a lot of quality in it and will continue to churn out more.

I rate both Steward and Furbank, both have been chopped and changed around a lot and then been thrown back in, that's never easy. I like Hendy at 15, he's a wonderful player, Arundell is great at 15, he'll come back, frankly I don't mind Malins or Daly at 15 either. It's at prop (arguably hooker), lock, scrum half and centre where I think we need help, although centre options for the next few years are looking far rosier imo.

Always a sign that you're wrong on something .

I do think saying we're short at lock is overstating things - we're not South Africa or France, but we've got three very high quality internationals at lock and Coles has shown decent touch in his few subs appearances at lock - we could be in far worse shape when we're worried about our 4th and 5th choice players.

Arthur Clarke is coming along very nicely at lock for us at Glaws. His work rate is insane and I think he’ll be capped before too long.

This is good to hear though, although I'm sorry to hear you say that you think he'll be leaving Glaws before too long. I actually know very little about young Asimov and I haven't noticed massive amounts of him when I've seen Glaws games, although that's mostly because I haven't been watching for him. What's he really good at - what's the thing worth looking out for?

Puja