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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:04 pm
by Digby
Zhivago wrote:Digby wrote:Zhivago wrote:
Well given the recent propensity for your party to round up and deport our own citizens, the fascist comparison is not as far off the mark as it used to be.
It's not like the Labour party spotted this issue coming either, both leaderships despite the matter being spoken about at various points by a number of backbench MPs have badly let down large numbers. Yes the Tories are the government and thus more responsible, but a decent opposition might at other times have helped avoid this crisis arising.
I don't believe for one moment what's happened was the intention of May or Rudd, nor the wider Tory party. So maybe they are facists depending on how one grades such things, but not over this issue, in this instance they've simply shown themselves incompetent over and over, and so sadly have the official opposition
'The ends do justify the means, Diggers. Don't let those commie bastards tell you otherwise." Said Rupert to his pal Diggers.
What ends are justified by what means in this instance?
The Windrush situation is a national disgrace, I'm only saying in looking at what's happened that both the government and the official opposition missed this was a serious problem in the offing, and had either (and ideally both) been more up to the job we could have avoided much of this.
I've long thought there's far too little serious review of government policy, and while I do blame them more given it's their policy and they're obviously best placed to bring about change it doesn't mean I don't want the opposition party to be seriously reviewing what happens on the back of policy changes.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:13 pm
by Zhivago
Digby wrote:Zhivago wrote:Digby wrote:
It's not like the Labour party spotted this issue coming either, both leaderships despite the matter being spoken about at various points by a number of backbench MPs have badly let down large numbers. Yes the Tories are the government and thus more responsible, but a decent opposition might at other times have helped avoid this crisis arising.
I don't believe for one moment what's happened was the intention of May or Rudd, nor the wider Tory party. So maybe they are facists depending on how one grades such things, but not over this issue, in this instance they've simply shown themselves incompetent over and over, and so sadly have the official opposition
'The ends do justify the means, Diggers. Don't let those commie bastards tell you otherwise." Said Rupert to his pal Diggers.
What ends are justified by what means in this instance?
The Windrush situation is a national disgrace, I'm only saying in looking at what's happened that both the government and the official opposition missed this was a serious problem in the offing, and had either (and ideally both) been more up to the job we could have avoided much of this.
I've long thought there's far too little serious review of government policy, and while I do blame them more given it's their policy and they're obviously best placed to bring about change it doesn't mean I don't want the opposition party to be seriously reviewing what happens on the back of policy changes.
In case you've missed it, judging from the Tory response, claiming that Labour are conflating legal and illegal immigration, the implication seems to be that the reduction of immigration outweigh the collateral damage of this scandal. Hence no resignations and therefore no real acceptance of responsibility or accountability.
Ps. I guess you missed it, but Labour voted against the immigration bills that caused this, on grounds that too much power was being handed over to the executive to deport people.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:20 pm
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
I'd agree with this. Though, as a Conservative, albeit a liberal one, I'm practically a fascist.
Well given the recent propensity for your party to round up and deport our own citizens, the fascist comparison is not as far off the mark as it used to be.
You’re not believing that propaganda are you? You need to read more.
If I could read more I would. But news from multiple papers in three languages is already hard to keep up with.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:26 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:
Well given the recent propensity for your party to round up and deport our own citizens, the fascist comparison is not as far off the mark as it used to be.
You’re not believing that propaganda are you? You need to read more.
If I could read more I would. But news from multiple papers in three languages is already hard to keep up with.
Yet still you find the time to post on here.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:33 pm
by Digby
I'm not interested in Tory attempts to shift criticism around Windrush onto a wider discussion around immigration wherein they feel they can go back onto the offensive against Labour. I'm not interested either in Labour suddenly trying to hammer the government over Windrush when they too missed just what a problem this was going to be.
Again I blame the government more, but I'd hope being the official opposition is about more than just voting against every government bill and playing gotcha. Sadly my hopes are rather let down in this area (as they were when the Tories were in opposition to Labour)
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:03 am
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
You’re not believing that propaganda are you? You need to read more.
If I could read more I would. But news from multiple papers in three languages is already hard to keep up with.
Yet still you find the time to post on here.
There is a threshold whereby additional time spent returns diminishing returns.
By using multiple languages, I can for example read/hear reports from German news ZDF where Uli Geck reported from Syria that witnesses were saying it was most likely staged.
It helps provide more context that illuminates the falsehoods in any one nation's media.
Sure I could learn more languages and read more news but that takes time, and it's a hefty investment.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:19 am
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:
If I could read more I would. But news from multiple papers in three languages is already hard to keep up with.
Yet still you find the time to post on here.
There is a threshold whereby additional time spent returns diminishing returns.
By using multiple languages, I can for example read/hear reports from German news ZDF where Uli Geck reported from Syria that witnesses were saying it was most likely staged.
It helps provide more context that illuminates the falsehoods in any one nation's media.
Sure I could learn more languages and read more news but that takes time, and it's a hefty investment.
Now. This sounds like a man who thinks far too much of himself.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:58 am
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
Yet still you find the time to post on here.
There is a threshold whereby additional time spent returns diminishing returns.
By using multiple languages, I can for example read/hear reports from German news ZDF where Uli Geck reported from Syria that witnesses were saying it was most likely staged.
It helps provide more context that illuminates the falsehoods in any one nation's media.
Sure I could learn more languages and read more news but that takes time, and it's a hefty investment.
Now. This sounds like a man who thinks far too much of himself.
Better that than be too modest with much to be modest about.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:35 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:
There is a threshold whereby additional time spent returns diminishing returns.
By using multiple languages, I can for example read/hear reports from German news ZDF where Uli Geck reported from Syria that witnesses were saying it was most likely staged.
It helps provide more context that illuminates the falsehoods in any one nation's media.
Sure I could learn more languages and read more news but that takes time, and it's a hefty investment.
Now. This sounds like a man who thinks far too much of himself.
Better that than be too modest with much to be modest about.
At least you accept your hypocrisy.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:23 am
by Zhivago
Looks like Labour won the majority of seats 52.4% atm, strange how it's being spun in the media...
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:33 am
by Stones of granite
Zhivago wrote:Looks like Labour won the majority of seats 52.4% atm, strange how it's being spun in the media...
Not really that strange when you consider how losing the General Election was spun as a Labour victory.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:36 am
by Stones of granite
Hold on, only 99 out of 150 Councils have declared results. Isn't it a bit early for the victory parade?
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:02 am
by Mellsblue
It’s all relative. In opposition you should be winning local elections. When the Govt is as unpopular as it’s said to be, the oppo should be taking them to the cleaners.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:25 am
by Stones of granite
So, it's kind of difficult to see what Zhivago is getting excited about. Here's the scores on the doors at 10:19
2018-05-04 11_18_29-England local elections 2018 - BBC News.jpg
Labour have lost control of a council but have increased their seats by 2.5%
Tories have neither lost or gained councils but have lost 0.1% seats
LibDems have gained a council and have increased their seats by 12.25%
So the real story is, LibDems have gained some momentum, UKIP have crashed and burned, and both Labour and Tories have held their ground. So far.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:41 am
by Zhivago
Stones of granite wrote:Hold on, only 99 out of 150 Councils have declared results. Isn't it a bit early for the victory parade?
Agreed, too early. Just countering the early media spin a bit by saying that the spin in the media seems to be that it's disappointing for Labour because they didn't wipe out the tories.... And take Westminster etc... My point is although no exciting event, Labour are making steady progress.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:45 am
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Stones of granite wrote:Hold on, only 99 out of 150 Councils have declared results. Isn't it a bit early for the victory parade?
Agreed, too early. Just countering the early media spin a bit by saying that the spin in the media seems to be that it's disappointing for Labour because they didn't wipe out the tories.... And take Westminster etc... My point is although no exciting event, Labour are making steady progress.
The story, based on results so far, is that Labour have underperformed given the current political climate.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:51 am
by Stones of granite
Zhivago wrote:Stones of granite wrote:Hold on, only 99 out of 150 Councils have declared results. Isn't it a bit early for the victory parade?
Agreed, too early. Just countering the early media spin a bit by saying that the spin in the media seems to be that it's disappointing for Labour because they didn't wipe out the tories.... And take Westminster etc... My point is although no exciting event, Labour are making steady progress.
What's your evidence for "steady progress"?
In my view, losing control of 1 council and increasing the total number of council seats by 2.5% is pretty close to "no progress".
In the light of the mess the Tories are making of the Brexit negotiations, losing a Home Secretary and the stagnant economy, you would have to say the lack of any significant impact by the Opposition is rather worrying.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:11 am
by Which Tyler
Current score:
Locals.jpg
Seems to me that we're now seeing the end of UKIP now that the conservatives have thrown themselves fully behind Brexit; with Lib Dem and Labour picking up most of that.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:49 am
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote:Current score:
Locals.jpg
Seems to me that we're now seeing the end of UKIP now that the conservatives have thrown themselves fully behind Brexit; with Lib Dem and Labour picking up most of that.
The line that the Tories are picking up all the UKIP vote isn't quite right - look at Plymouth, for example. Labour being fully behind Brexit has helped there. Lib Dems picking up some Tory remainers.
Labour have to be a tad disappointed, given what a shyte shambles the Tories are.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:10 pm
by Zhivago
Stones of granite wrote:Zhivago wrote:Stones of granite wrote:Hold on, only 99 out of 150 Councils have declared results. Isn't it a bit early for the victory parade?
Agreed, too early. Just countering the early media spin a bit by saying that the spin in the media seems to be that it's disappointing for Labour because they didn't wipe out the tories.... And take Westminster etc... My point is although no exciting event, Labour are making steady progress.
What's your evidence for "steady progress"?
In my view, losing control of 1 council and increasing the total number of council seats by 2.5% is pretty close to "no progress".
In the light of the mess the Tories are making of the Brexit negotiations, losing a Home Secretary and the stagnant economy, you would have to say the lack of any significant impact by the Opposition is rather worrying.
There is an accretive effect that will help them in the future. Gaining the most seats is progress even if it is not rapid progress.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:32 pm
by Stom
Previously, I could not see this idea of Labour policy causing them problems. They were shoring up a vote amongst an under-represented group and they should have been able to build from there. But there has been no building, unfortunately. It's not helped by the media - I'm seriously shocked by the kind of news my parents get, it's seriously partisan, far worse than when I lived there - but it's also not helped by the party.
To make no inroads outside London is poor form.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:43 pm
by fivepointer
Labour should be very concerned and disappointed.
take away the results in London, where they have done well in spite of not taking control of Westminster and Wandsworth, and you are left with a very indifferent performance.
What should alarm them are the results in the midlands in particular (thats before the Brum results are in)
The Tories will be quietly satisfied at not taking any major hits.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:09 pm
by Stones of granite
Zhivago wrote:Stones of granite wrote:Zhivago wrote:
Agreed, too early. Just countering the early media spin a bit by saying that the spin in the media seems to be that it's disappointing for Labour because they didn't wipe out the tories.... And take Westminster etc... My point is although no exciting event, Labour are making steady progress.
What's your evidence for "steady progress"?
In my view, losing control of 1 council and increasing the total number of council seats by 2.5% is pretty close to "no progress".
In the light of the mess the Tories are making of the Brexit negotiations, losing a Home Secretary and the stagnant economy, you would have to say the lack of any significant impact by the Opposition is rather worrying.
There is an accretive effect that will help them in the future. Gaining the most seats is progress even if it is not rapid progress.
I don't buy it. You're spinning this like Malcolm Tucker on crack.
Normally, with a Government in muppet mode you'd have the opposition smashing them in mid-term council elections. Not this damp squib.
Latest is:
Both Tories and Labour lose overall control of 1 council each.
Labour councillors up 3%
Tory councillors down 0.3% (ie virtually the same)
LibDem councillors up 11%
Good luck spinning a victory out of that.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:31 pm
by Banquo
Stones of granite wrote:Zhivago wrote:Stones of granite wrote:
What's your evidence for "steady progress"?
In my view, losing control of 1 council and increasing the total number of council seats by 2.5% is pretty close to "no progress".
In the light of the mess the Tories are making of the Brexit negotiations, losing a Home Secretary and the stagnant economy, you would have to say the lack of any significant impact by the Opposition is rather worrying.
There is an accretive effect that will help them in the future. Gaining the most seats is progress even if it is not rapid progress.
I don't buy it. You're spinning this like Malcolm Tucker on crack.
Normally, with a Government in muppet mode you'd have the opposition smashing them in mid-term council elections. Not this damp squib.
Latest is:
Both Tories and Labour lose overall control of 1 council each.
Labour councillors up 3%
Tory councillors down 0.3% (ie virtually the same)
LibDem councillors up 11%
Good luck spinning a victory out of that.
Both Labour and Tories have had a positive swing, +4 and +6% respectively; Lib Dems have done well, though not as well as expected possibly. I'd think the Tories can't believe it tbh.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:29 pm
by Digby
Local elections were basically a score draw. If this carries on we're set for another hung parliament, so it could come down to who has enough seats to prop up the Tories or Labour, and whether anyone will want to