RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:22 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 11:23 pm

Zhivago wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:07 pm

It is insane.

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

You can't take back a march on Moscow.

Putin is considerably weakened but Prigozin is not long for this world.

Some media have the opinion that the fel smells very fishy, perhaps suggesting that the whole thing was stage managed. If so, who benefits? Not Putin who has been hugely undermined. Not the Russian military who didn’t do a lot to stop the progress of the convoy north. And why would Putin make a public speech denouncing the mutineers as traitors?

The only explanation that makes sense is that Prigozhin has vet estimated his support and drew back when it became clear he was about to cross a huge red line. Putin was merciful because he has to be in order to peel away the Wagner fighters. Prigozhin is off to Belarus, but we don’t know in what capacity.

I suppose we can only hope that Prigozhins revelation that the basis of the special military operation was just bullshit has some impact.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:22 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 11:23 pm

Zhivago wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:07 pm

It is insane.

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

You can't take back a march on Moscow.

Putin is considerably weakened but Prigozin is not long for this world.

Some media have the opinion that the fel smells very fishy, perhaps suggesting that the whole thing was stage managed. If so, who benefits? Not Putin who has been hugely undermined. Not the Russian military who didn’t do a lot to stop the progress of the convoy north. And why would Putin make a public speech denouncing the mutineers as traitors?

The only explanation that makes sense is that Prigozhin has vet estimated his support and drew back when it became clear he was about to cross a huge red line. Putin was merciful because he has to be in order to peel away the Wagner fighters. Prigozhin is off to Belarus, but we don’t know in what capacity.

I suppose we can only hope that Prigozhins revelation that the basis of the special military operation was just bullshit has some impact.

Zhivago wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 4:49 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:22 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 11:23 pm
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

You can't take back a march on Moscow.

Putin is considerably weakened but Prigozin is not long for this world.

Some media have the opinion that the fel smells very fishy, perhaps suggesting that the whole thing was stage managed. If so, who benefits? Not Putin who has been hugely undermined. Not the Russian military who didn’t do a lot to stop the progress of the convoy north. And why would Putin make a public speech denouncing the mutineers as traitors?

The only explanation that makes sense is that Prigozhin has vet estimated his support and drew back when it became clear he was about to cross a huge red line. Putin was merciful because he has to be in order to peel away the Wagner fighters. Prigozhin is off to Belarus, but we don’t know in what capacity.

I suppose we can only hope that Prigozhins revelation that the basis of the special military operation was just bullshit has some impact.

The notion that Russians don't understand that it is a war of aggression by them is nonsense.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 5:25 pm

Zhivago wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 4:49 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:22 am

Some media have the opinion that the fel smells very fishy, perhaps suggesting that the whole thing was stage managed. If so, who benefits? Not Putin who has been hugely undermined. Not the Russian military who didn’t do a lot to stop the progress of the convoy north. And why would Putin make a public speech denouncing the mutineers as traitors?

The only explanation that makes sense is that Prigozhin has vet estimated his support and drew back when it became clear he was about to cross a huge red line. Putin was merciful because he has to be in order to peel away the Wagner fighters. Prigozhin is off to Belarus, but we don’t know in what capacity.

I suppose we can only hope that Prigozhins revelation that the basis of the special military operation was just bullshit has some impact.

The notion that Russians don't understand that it is a war of aggression by them is nonsense.

Depends on where they get their news. The idea of an attack from the west isn’t a new one for Russia. I doubt it will be decisive but it won’t be helping morale one jot.

Prigozhin’s Armed Rebellion: ​ Why did it fail, why did it almost succeed, and what are the implications?
26 June

This paper is a strawman intended to generate discussion and thinking. Many commentators and experts may disagree with all or at least parts of the strawman; however, its purpose is not to foretell the future but outline some factors that led to the failure, why it almost succeeded and potential implications. ​ ​

Why did the rebellion fail? ​

Prigozhin needed either direct support or a policy of non-intervention from enough of the Russian Security Forces between Rostov on Don and the Kremlin for the rebellion to succeed. It is likely that Prigozhin expected to gain the allegiance of senior Russian officers and military personnel and it is conceivable that he received plenty of indications of support from senior leaders for his narrative about failed leadership of the Ukraine War. However, this expectation received a major blow when the Wagner-affiliated Army General Sergei Surovikin condemned Prigozhin’s call for an armed rebellion. Furthermore, Putin’s public statement was a show of strength and may have been enough to draw people back to him. And Putin comparing Prigozhin’s rebellion to the 1917 Russian Revolution, warning of a repeat of such events, may also have deterred vacillating officers. So, it is likely that, despite probable support from within the Kremlin for Prigozhin’s building narrative, he miscalculated how much of this support would transfer into support for the armed rebellion. As a result, he failed to gain enough support to ensure his force would reach the Kremlin unmolested.

Why did it almost succeed? ​

Prigozhin met little initial resistance for the distance he advanced. This advance highlighted Russia’s lack of capability to promptly deploy forces to counter threats. This lack of capability is likely to be a combination of poor decision making which could indicate that some decision-makers wavered in whom to support and the degradation of Russian reserve units that are held back in Russia. It should also be noted that even though Russian authorities mobilised the Russian National Guard (Rosgvardia) they were highly ineffective. The Rosgvardia, whose sole purpose is to protect against internal security threats, failed to resist the armed rebellion allowing Wagner to capture critical military infrastructure in Rostov-on-Don and march towards Moscow. This will likely pose a significant worry to Putin should there be any future incidents. ​

What are the implications? ​

There are several significant implications:

Putin’s Purge?

It will be most concerning for Putin that the Kremlin was surprised by this rebellion. It is evidence that Russian Intelligence Services, despite Prigozhin’s rhetoric becoming increasingly strident, were not monitoring the potential for such a rebellion. As a result, Putin’s response is likely to be a form of violent purge. Russia’s history is replete with violent purges to address perceived threats so agents of the Kremlin will be seeking out any person who has a link to Wagner, Prigozhin and his supporters. We are likely to see changes amongst the current ‘siloviki’ who hold much of the Kremlin’s power.

Weakened Russian Army in Ukraine. ​

Regardless of the quick outcome of this rebellion, the Russian Army’s leadership in Ukraine is highly likely to be weaker; when officers should be leading, they will be looking at their backs to see whether the purge is coming their way. Moreover, the practical undermining of Wagner’s role will leave several holes in the defensive lines that will need plugging quickly. The combination will be more severe damage to the morale of the Russian Army which will provide opportunity for the Ukrainian attacking forces. ​

Circling Predators.

Prigozhin’s armed rebellion combined with Putin fleeing to St Petersburg will be interpreted as a sign of substantial weakness; as a result, Putin will no longer be considered the apex predator that he once was. It follows that life after Putin is much closer than anyone would have considered in February 2022. Individuals and groups from the current siloviki, and oligarchs, will be calculating if and when to challenge the current status quo using their positions of power and wealth to construct potential allies for a future attempt to overthrow Putin.

The Russian People. ​

The implications for Putin will lead to a climate of fear for the population of Russia. ​ An increase in visible security presence, including checkpoints where papers will be studied, is highly likely. People perceived to be aligned to Prigozhin, or other potential competitors, will be arrested and interrogated. And the performance of the Russian Army in Ukraine is likely to be worse resulting in even greater casualties. It is possible that this rebellion gives Putin more reason to call for a general mobilisation of people and the economy for the war. And it is possible that people connected to the West will be targeted to build a narrative that ‘Western interference’ was to blame for the rebellion – a false narrative often used by despots and dictators when there is trouble at home.

Russia’s Autonomous Republics.

The Russian Federation is, in effect, an empire made up of 22 nominally autonomous republics that are home to specific ethnicities. Those that border China, may start to look towards Beijing for support which would be an extremely dangerous scenario for the Russian Federation. In theory, these Republics have rights to hold a referendum on whether they remain in the Federation; in practice, this is a massive step but given the current fracturing of Putin’s power, combined with an enfeebled military, it cannot be ruled out.

Ukraine. ​

Ukraine will have a weaker army to fight; however, expelling the invading Russians completely will remain a very daunting task. Politically, some of the nations who are supporting Putin may switch their allegiance or, at the very least, become more neutral. There may be a window of opportunity for Ukraine’s diplomats to engage with these countries and persuade them to switch sides. ​

The West. ​

The West will be incredibly careful to avoid any action that can be perceived or portrayed as interfering in the internal affairs of Russia. Owing to the risks falling out from an unstable Russian Federation, ranging from unsecured nuclear weapons to regional conflict, any potential diplomatic, or other response options, will be kept under constant review.

The Big One - Collapse of the Russian Federation. ​

Empires fall when crisis hits and the Emperor is unable to respond. The population in the centre of the empire, in this case Russia itself, become more interested in wealth and power whereas the fringes become more restive. As outlined above, Putin and his Kremlin are severely weakened; their security forces are reduced and committed in Ukraine, so the centrifugal forces holding the vastness of the Russian Federation together are weaker than ever. As a result, although unlikely, this scenario merits consideration and contingency planning.

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:53 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 5:25 pm

Zhivago wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 4:49 pm

The notion that Russians don't understand that it is a war of aggression by them is nonsense.

Depends on where they get their news. The idea of an attack from the west isn’t a new one for Russia. I doubt it will be decisive but it won’t be helping morale one jot.

Agreed - they're in a tightly controlled infosphere and I can see it being entirely plausible that people believe in there being Nazis and genocides of Russian speakers there, and that any other reports are just bias from countries that hate Russia. Hells, look at the USA - half their population genuinely believes the alternative universe that Fox and OAN pump out and they've actually got other media outlets they could get info from.

Puja

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:53 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 5:25 pm
Depends on where they get their news. The idea of an attack from the west isn’t a new one for Russia. I doubt it will be decisive but it won’t be helping morale one jot.

Agreed - they're in a tightly controlled infosphere and I can see it being entirely plausible that people believe in there being Nazis and genocides of Russian speakers there, and that any other reports are just bias from countries that hate Russia. Hells, look at the USA - half their population genuinely believes the alternative universe that Fox and OAN pump out and they've actually got other media outlets they could get info from.

Puja

There's a limit on how much slack we can cut the public for being misinformed. Maybe if they're young and naive, but anyone over ~25 really should question why their country is invading a country that isn't threatening them, whether it's Ukraine or Iraq or whatever.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:04 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:53 pm

Agreed - they're in a tightly controlled infosphere and I can see it being entirely plausible that people believe in there being Nazis and genocides of Russian speakers there, and that any other reports are just bias from countries that hate Russia. Hells, look at the USA - half their population genuinely believes the alternative universe that Fox and OAN pump out and they've actually got other media outlets they could get info from.

Puja

There's a limit on how much slack we can cut the public for being misinformed. Maybe if they're young and naive, but anyone over ~25 really should question why their country is invading a country that isn't threatening them, whether it's Ukraine or Iraq or whatever.

They were begged to intervene by the ethnic Russians that were being genocided by the evil Nazis. Desperate people in the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk were being brutally slaughtered all because they wanted to be free - it's not an "invasion", it's a humanitarian mission of rescue.

It's very easy to say that you would be able to see through propaganda if you were the one locked in the bubble, but I suspect it'd be a lot harder than most people think. It's not something that only works on the stupid or gullible.

Puja

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:10 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:04 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am
There's a limit on how much slack we can cut the public for being misinformed. Maybe if they're young and naive, but anyone over ~25 really should question why their country is invading a country that isn't threatening them, whether it's Ukraine or Iraq or whatever.

They were begged to intervene by the ethnic Russians that were being genocided by the evil Nazis. Desperate people in the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk were being brutally slaughtered all because they wanted to be free - it's not an "invasion", it's a humanitarian mission of rescue.

It's very easy to say that you would be able to see through propaganda if you were the one locked in the bubble, but I suspect it'd be a lot harder than most people think. It's not something that only works on the stupid or gullible.

Puja

It's not just the stupid or gullible - it's those vain enough to think the country they happened to be born in is the best and those callous enough to ignore the slaughter of ordinary people who just happen to be foreigners.

People have a responsibility to think a little harder, not take the easy answer they've been spoonfed, particularly when decisions end the lives of thousands.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:21 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:10 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:04 am

They were begged to intervene by the ethnic Russians that were being genocided by the evil Nazis. Desperate people in the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk were being brutally slaughtered all because they wanted to be free - it's not an "invasion", it's a humanitarian mission of rescue.

It's very easy to say that you would be able to see through propaganda if you were the one locked in the bubble, but I suspect it'd be a lot harder than most people think. It's not something that only works on the stupid or gullible.

Puja

It's not just the stupid or gullible - it's those vain enough to think the country they happened to be born in is the best and those callous enough to ignore the slaughter of ordinary people who just happen to be foreigners.

People have a responsibility to think a little harder, not take the easy answer they've been spoonfed, particularly when decisions end the lives of thousands.

How do they know about the slaughter of ordinary people who just happen to be foreigners? "We're just fighting the Nazis who were committing a genocide - that's what every Russian language news station's said," quoth the person living in Nizhy Novgorod who only speaks Russian.

You accept easy answers for loads of things that you've been spoonfed without verifying them yourself (as do I). You're just lucky to live in a country that offers rich access to information and that a lot of the sources that you trust are generally truthful (or at least, trueful-adjacent).

Puja

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 7:31 am SoM, you make very good points and maybe many, most, Russians aren’t totally taken in by the government lies. But it is a criminal offence to criticise the special military operation. So it’s not just that you need to find alternative news sources and question, you also need the courage to speak out.

I’m going to assume that most people will just keep their heads down.

In 1648, during the reign of Tsar Alexis, the Salt Riot took place, one of the causes of which was the imposition of a tax on salt. The people came out with a demand to extradite the objectionable boyars involved in the implementation of an unpopular policy in society. By the way, this tax was introduced with the direct assistance of the boyar Boris Morozov, a close friend of the tsar, and therefore people asked to extradite him. In addition, the famous boyar had a bad reputation. He was considered the patron of bribe-takers and embezzlers at the royal court.

In order to calm the population, the tsar gave the boyars to the people, some of whom the people tore to pieces on the spot, but he sent his friend Boris Morozov into exile in a monastery. It turned out that the tsar did not tarnish his reputation at all, but on the contrary showed himself as a defender of the interests of the common people. But also as soon as the people calmed down and forgot about the salt tax, Boris Morozov was returned from exile to Moscow, and after a while he was returned to court.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:04 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am
There's a limit on how much slack we can cut the public for being misinformed. Maybe if they're young and naive, but anyone over ~25 really should question why their country is invading a country that isn't threatening them, whether it's Ukraine or Iraq or whatever.

They were begged to intervene by the ethnic Russians that were being genocided by the evil Nazis. Desperate people in the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk were being brutally slaughtered all because they wanted to be free - it's not an "invasion", it's a humanitarian mission of rescue.

It's very easy to say that you would be able to see through propaganda if you were the one locked in the bubble, but I suspect it'd be a lot harder than most people think. It's not something that only works on the stupid or gullible.

Puja

Zhivago wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:54 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:04 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am
There's a limit on how much slack we can cut the public for being misinformed. Maybe if they're young and naive, but anyone over ~25 really should question why their country is invading a country that isn't threatening them, whether it's Ukraine or Iraq or whatever.

They were begged to intervene by the ethnic Russians that were being genocided by the evil Nazis. Desperate people in the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk were being brutally slaughtered all because they wanted to be free - it's not an "invasion", it's a humanitarian mission of rescue.

It's very easy to say that you would be able to see through propaganda if you were the one locked in the bubble, but I suspect it'd be a lot harder than most people think. It's not something that only works on the stupid or gullible.

Puja

Must be really difficult. The signs of evil must be really subtle and difficult to spot.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:26 pm

Zhivago wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:54 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:04 am

They were begged to intervene by the ethnic Russians that were being genocided by the evil Nazis. Desperate people in the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk were being brutally slaughtered all because they wanted to be free - it's not an "invasion", it's a humanitarian mission of rescue.

It's very easy to say that you would be able to see through propaganda if you were the one locked in the bubble, but I suspect it'd be a lot harder than most people think. It's not something that only works on the stupid or gullible.

Puja

Must be really difficult. The signs of evil must be really subtle and difficult to spot.

Despite what Prigozhin wanted, that isn't the flag of Russia though, is it?

Puja

Zhivago wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 6:07 pm Puja, I'm sorry but the signs really aren't subtle. I'm disappointed in you for defending these barbarians.

-on tv talking about killing 10% of Ukrainian population: https://youtu.be/I5yvjyJdDW0
-on tv talking about wiping Ukraine off the map https://youtu.be/G5dyEPK2UlU
-on tv saying Ukraine should be eliminated /n6k9A5KzRqA
-on tv threatening to send Ukrainians to Gulags to cleanse them https://youtu.be/Sgzb0BlRZSs
-on tv talking about invading other countries /g6PSOjPLxXs
-on tv suggesting to kill Ukrainian children to wipe out Ukraine https://youtu.be/8lkshypC2Rk

That's just a selection. Moscovian culture is barbaric. It hasn't moved on much since Ivan the Terrible. Who they glorify by the way. As they do Stalin. Anyone who claims otherwise is a fool.

Moscow doesn't believe in tears afterall... москва не вярва на сълзи