2023 RWC Host Poll

[rowan]

& yet the final will be a sell out - just like the Cape Town 7s.

Your bias against South Africa is more than evident with all this nitpicking and clutching at straws. & that's because you don't have a valid case - and you know it.

[rowan]

I just checked the attendance figures for the Pro 12 semis, both of which were held in Ireland, and they were 15K and 18K - or basically half the size of the crowd at Ellis Park on Saturday. Moreover, the final, also held in Ireland, drew 44K. The final at Ellis Park is already a sell-out with 62K tickets available.

So who's struggling for numbers ??

[Eugene Wrayburn]

& yet the final will be a sell out - just like the Cape Town 7s.

Your bias against South Africa is more than evident with all this nitpicking and clutching at straws. & that's because you don't have a valid case - and you know it.

If you only possessed a memory...

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I just checked the attendance figures for the Pro 12 semis, both of which were held in Ireland, and they were 15K and 18K - or basically half the size of the crowd at Ellis Park on Saturday. Moreover, the final, also held in Ireland, drew 44K. The final at Ellis Park is already a sell-out with 62K tickets available.

So who's struggling for numbers ??

My point if you remember was that there's precious little evidence of the South Africans being rugby mad as you've oft asserted. I'm perfectly happy with the attendance at Irish matches, but then that is to entirely miss the point that Ireland does have an entire continent of rugby fans on its doorstep.

[cashead]

Aw shit, let's cancel the 2019 RWC in Japan too, since it's still behind football and baseball in terms of popularity.

[rowan]

I just checked the attendance figures for the Pro 12 semis, both of which were held in Ireland, and they were 15K and 18K - or basically half the size of the crowd at Ellis Park on Saturday. Moreover, the final, also held in Ireland, drew 44K. The final at Ellis Park is already a sell-out with 62K tickets available.

So who's struggling for numbers ??

My point if you remember was that there's precious little evidence of the South Africans being rugby mad as you've oft asserted. I'm perfectly happy with the attendance at Irish matches, but then that is to entirely miss the point that Ireland does have an entire continent of rugby fans on its doorstep.

Once again, trying to turn the Irish bid into a European bid because you know the case for Ireland on its own is very weak. South Africa does have a continent on its own back doorstep, and it's one that rugby would do well to tap into. When I refer to rugby-mad South Africans, regrettably this means the 9% white minority. If you don't think they're rugby-mad, you're missing something. Obviously the 91% non-white majority is not so crazy about this game, which is still perceived to some degree as the sport of the oppressor. We saw how far 1995 went toward changing that viewpoint, and it would be in the best long-term interests of the game to do it again, however belatedly. Not only has South African rugby made inroads in that department, the sport has made inroads throughout the continent with numerous countries now involved in organized competition, and several of them up to ENC 1 division level now. The rest has been said before - comparing South Africa to Ireland in rugby is like comparing Brazil to Ireland in football. There simply isn't any comparison. One is a super power, a large country with a vast array of huge stadiums, the other is a dreary little rain-swept island with only one major center.

[rowan]

My letter to the Observer on the subject: http://sobserver.ws/en/03_08_2017/lette ... venues.htm

[Digby]

SA doing themselves no favours whatsoever not sending a team to the Women's WC, it's almost like they don't want to host 2023. Not sure it makes much difference as it sounds like they're miles behind in likely support anyway.

[rowan]

Only if you're reading the British propaganda. Besides, NZ was behind South Africa for 2011, having been axed as co-host of 2003, but somehow managed to bribe enough people to get it. & that's what it'll come down to this time as well. As for the women's WC. yes, totally irrelevant and meaningless in this context.

[Digby]

British propaganda? There's barely a mention of who'll host any WC, we didn't get that much attention even when England hosted.

There's been some coverage of Manu's return to (and exit from) an England camp, and some coverage of the Women's world cup. But I've seen sod all about the 2023 WC. The British media scarce gives a crap about rugby, even before the football season is about to start and we're hosting the World Athletic championships.

I suppose if one scoured the internet there might be some stories about, but in the everyday sense you'd struggle to find mention never mind propaganda . And I typically read the Times which carries way more rugby than the red tops

[rowan]

& yet having a huge rugby-mad community on its back door step has been touted as one of Ireland's main advantages.

In truth, there is a rugby-mad community in South Africa ,of comparable size and far greater passion, which won't have witnessed the tournament in almost three decades by 2023.

[Digby]

There's almost nowhere that's rugby mad, NZ maybe. And the WC held there cost a fortune

But even as a minority interest there's enough interest in Ireland, just as with SA.

[rowan]

Sure, you could say the same about football. But you wouldn't give the World Cup to Ireland ahead of Brazil for obvious reasons - the same reasons it would be folly to give them the RWC ahead of South Africa - quite apart from the fact it makes a farce of the whole 'global' concept returning it to the same small corner of Europe every 8 years. Time to cut the umbilical cord and move on, I'd say . . .

[Digby]

If it's about making the game global why then go back to SA? Pick somewhere new if that's what you're after. For me I'd quite like to see the event go to Argentina, but of the bids actually out there Ireland do look way ahead.

[rowan]

Well that's quite ironic, coming from someone who would like to see Ireland involved for the third time. Asking for the tournament to be returned to one of its major heartlands for the first time in almost 30 years is very different to asking for it to be returned to the same small corner of Europe for the 5th time in 10 tournaments. Do you really think that people are fooled by these silly arguments? NZ, England and France have all played major host to the event twice, England and France have also been involved on additional occasions, and Australia has been a major host one and minor host as well. But somehow the African super power - second biggest rugby playing community on the planet, second most successful, and unrivaled in terms of its stadia, climate and geography - is not deemed worthy of the same honor. You know, too dangerous, concerns about financial security and all, blah blah . . .

[Digby]

I think Ireland has never hosted the event, that SA has hosted the event, and that this small little corner of Europe bankrolls the sport. I don't know I was ever pro Ireland btw, I have no objection to them hosting, but for myself I'd have taken the RWC to Argentina, and probably to Italy before Ireland (and I've have picked both of those over England too)

I'll say this for SA, I'd rather see them stage event a 2nd time than go back to France or England again, but if SA have to wait another 12-20 years that doesn't bother me either.

[rowan]

Ireland has co-hosted the event on two occasions and you know it well. That's twice as many World Cups it's been involved with as South Africa. Yet South Africa is several times Ireland's size, both population-wise and geography-wise, it is much more successful at rugby, it has won two World Cups whereas Ireland has never made the semis, and it has a vast array of rugby-purpose stadia in a vast number of cites, and that's not to mention the much better climate. This argument about Ireland having never hosted the World Cup is complete hogwash. It's like saying they should get the FIFA World Cup because they've never hosted it, but in that case they haven't even co-hosted it either. Ireland is a tiny island with a modest rugby history, only one major metropolitan centre and a fairy abysmal climate. It is suited to co-host status at best, and is lucky to get that. Meanwhile, all of rugby's super powers have hosted the event at least twice - except South Africa. Why is that? What's this MASSIVE problem with Africa? You're pulling ridiculous arguments out of your arse because you simply can't countenance the idea of the African nation hosting again after almost 30 years - in spite of the fact they did a marvellous job the first time and the sport proved a huge success in terms of breaking down barriers in the integration process. But a generation of Africans have grown up since with no memory of that marvellous occasion, and it would be a very mean-spirited Eurocentric attitude that would wish to deprive them their rightful turn. Argentina's time will come, as will Italy's. But France and the collective home unions should wait a little longer and not expect to co-host the event in their little corner of the world every eight years as of right, and in my view Ireland should NEVER be considered as anything more than a co-host to Britain (who should not host it in any manner or form again this side of 2050, IMHO).

[Digby]

Can't countenance? I've just said I'd prefer to see the cup go back to SA before returning to France and England (and given France are up for bidding again that does seem of some relevance)

I do though think you'll make sod all headway saying that Ireland haven't hosted the cup (and they clearly haven't) is immaterial whilst that SA haven't hosted in nearly 30 years is material, you're essentially managing to disagree with yourself in applying the same logic in different fashion. I also don't think you'll make any headway continuing to say Ireland is too small, it clearly isn't too small to sell out a huge number of games, and it's well placed for a large number of travelling fans, and they've plenty of suitably sized stadiums.

I would like to see the cup go back to Africa, ideally that'd be somewhere other than SA to actually move the event around a little, but in a practical sense it'd likely have to be SA. I'm not sold though SA should get the event again before any part of the Americas. I don't disagree the event has been to England and France too often, but that's just about raising cash for the tier 1 nations and I doubt that will cease to be of interest

[rowan]

Well, that post appeared to be full of conflicting messages. Ireland have co-hosted the event twice. That is a fact, and that is what I wrote. You imagine they have some divine right to serve as major host, despite their obvious shortcomings, which I need not go over again. They don't. They're only lucky that their proximity to Britain and France renders them a suitable co-host. But comparing Ireland to South Africa on the presumption they bring the same qualities to the table is a fallacy. Ireland's tiny geography and abysmal climate won't prevent it hosting the tournament, no, but they will detract a great deal from it, and if they ignore the signs and head down that road we'll likely end up with a debacle that will make the current Super rugby mess look like a Sunday picnic. & you still haven't addressed the fact that all of the major powers in the game have already hosted on more than one occasion, so making South Africa wait three decades while it repeatedly bids without success (surprisingly on a couple of occasions) does appear to smack of prejudice. They did a wonderful job the first time, they have an unrivalled array of stadia ready and waiting, and there is no reason on this earth to deprive them yet again and award it to a first time bidder a fraction their size.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I'll ask it again. How many RWC matches has SA hosted. How many has Ireland hosted? Saying Ireland has been co-host twice without considering the degree to which that is actually the case would be perplexing were it to be anyone but rowan.

[rowan]

What would be perplexing to anyone without a Eurocentric view of the world is the presumption South Africa and Ireland are two peas of the same pod. They're not. South Africa's credentials are vastly superior. Yet Ireland has been involved in co-hosting two World Cup tournaments, which is what I wrote. The last occasion they did so was more recent than the one time South Africa hosted the event. Or to put it another way, Ireland has hosted World Cup fixtures in the professional era, whereas South Africa has not (despite bidding unsuccessfully 3 times in a row).

World Cup matches hosted:
1 New Zealand 69 (2 tournaments)
2 Australia 59 (2 tournaments)
3 France 58 (3 tournaments)
4 England 56 (3 tournaments)
5 South Africa 32 (1 tournament)
6 Wales 28 (4 tournaments)
7 Scotland 15 (3 tournaments)
8 Ireland 12 (2 tournaments)

Most successful World Cup nations:
1 New Zealand 3 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze, 1 4th
2 Australia 2 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze, 4th
3 South Africa 2 golds, 2 bronze
4 England 1 gold, 2 silvers, 1 4th
5 France 3 silvers, 1 bronze, 2 4th
6 Wales 1 bronze, 1 4th
7 Argentina 1 bronze, 1 4th
8 Scotland 1 4th

Registered Rugby Players (by thousands):
1 France 542
2 South Africa 405
3 England 382
4 Australia 230
5 New Zealand 150
6 USA 120
7 Fiji 120
8 Japan 105

Top stadia in South Africa (40K plus):

ZAF Kaizer Chiefs FC Football Johannesburg FNB Stadium 94 736 2009 all-seater
ZAF Golden Lions RU Rugby Johannesburg Ellis Park Stadium 62 567 1928 all-seater
ZAF Garankuwa United Football Mafikeng Mmabatho Stadium 59 000 1981 all-seater
ZAF Ajax Cape Town Football Cape Town Cape Town Stadium 55 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF Cape Town City FC Football Cape Town Cape Town Stadium 55 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF The Sharks Rugby Durban ABSA Stadium 55 000 1891 all-seater
ZAF AmaZulu FC Football Durban Moses Mabhida Stadium 54 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF Blue Bulls RU Rugby Tshwane Loftus Versfeld 51 762 1924 all-seater
ZAF Mamelodi Sundowns FC Football Tshwane Loftus Versfeld 51 762 1924 all-seater
ZAF Stormers Super 14 Rugby Cape Town Newlands Stadium 50 900 1989 all-seater
ZAF Western Province RU Rugby Cape Town Newlands Stadium 50 900 1989 all-seater
ZAF Eastern Province Kings Rugby Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Southern Kings Rugby Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Chippa United FC Football Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Free State Cheetahs Rugby Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Central Cheetahs Rugby Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Bloemfontein Celtic Football Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Platinum Stars FC Football Phokeng Royal Bafokeng Stadium 42 000 1999 all-seater
ZAF Black Leopards FC Football Polokwane Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 911 2009 all-seater
ZAF Polokwane City FC Football Polokwane Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 911 2009 all-seater
ZAF Steval Pumas Rugby Nelspruit Mbombela Stadium 40 929 2009 all-seater
ZAF Orlando Pirates FC Football Orlando Orlando Stadium 40 000 2008 all-seater

Top Stadia in Ireland (40 k plus):

IRL National Stadium Gaelic Football/Hurling Dublin Croke Park 82 300 2002 69 500
IRL Tipperary County Gaelic Football/Hurling Thurles Semple Stadium 53 000 1910 -
IRL National Stadium Football Dublin Aviva Stadium 51 700 2010 all-seater
IRL National Stadium Rugby Dublin Aviva Stadium 51 700 2010 all-seater
IRL Limerick County Gaelic Football/Hurling Limerick Gaelic Grounds 50 000 1926 35 000
IRL Cork County Gaelic Football/Hurling Cork Páirc Uí Chaoimh 43 000 1976 -
IRL Kerry County Gaelic Football/Hurling Killarney Fitzgerald Stadium 43 000 1936 -

South Africa population 56 million

Metropolitan centers with over 1 million:
1 Johannesburg 7,860,781
2 Cape Town 3,740,026
3 Durban 3,442,361
4 Germiston-Ekurhuleni 3,178,470
5 Pretoria 2,921,488
6 Nelspruit-Ehlanzeni 1,688,615
7 Rustenburg 1,507,505
8 Mthatha-OR Tambo 1,364,943
9 Middelburg-Nkangala 1,308,129
10 Thohoyandou-Vhembe 1,294,722

Johannesburg climate in September - average 16°C, 4 days of rain
Johannesburg climate in October - average 18°C, 12 days of rain

Ireland population 5 million

Metropolitan centers with over 1 million:
1 Dublin 1,904,806

Dublin climate in September - average 14°C, 21 days of rain
Dublin climate in October - average 11°C, 24 days of rain

[cashead]

You know, it might also have to do with the fact that SARU is an absolute basketcase organisation, headed up by someone who is probably shifty as dicks?

[Digby]

Nobody posting here would unaware that Ireland have had RWC matches played in Ireland, but that's just not the same as hosting the event, not even close.

[rowan]

Silly comments, signifying only that you have exhausted every other silly argument you have been able to scrounge out of the bottom of the bucket...

[Digby]

If you don't agree that hosting the odd game in someone else's WC isn't the same as hosting your own WC then fine, but it's not actually silly that many others will consider that things which aren't the same and to which they assign different values are simply different.

It rather seems you're simply saying the event should go to Africa and that's an end of it. Two legs bad, four legs good and all that jazz.