RugbyRebels

Our attack was a bit more effective but that seemed to be down to our carriers running more powerfully than usual, or England's defence being a little off the pace. Other than the lovely one-off move for Liam's try there was little more inventiveness in attack than we usually produce. We were still predictable, and stoppable. Biggar had a great game but I still would have much preferred Sam Davies there. We only scored 16 points - that's simply not enough to win a game these days. We need to make more chances.

Our defence was excellent (well, most of the time), but it was weakened by the insane subbing of Moriarty. I'm sorry, if you take a guy off who's playing that well at 52 minutes, you deserve to lose. Bringing Roberts on didn't make a whole lot of sense either, but probably made no real difference.

Cuthbert. Yet another try-free game for him... does that come as a surprise to anyone? Poor defensive positioning and tackling at the end of the game.... again, any surprise there? Not his fault, poor guy, he just should not be in the squad. There are at least 5 better players available for the wing. It just makes no sense to keep selecting him. And it would be no surprise to see him picked again if we lose one of our back three once more.

And finally, what the f@ck was that smile on Howley's face in the post-match interview? Just unacceptable.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Sourdust wrote:

Discreet Hooker wrote:That game could have gone either way lads .

That's just it, though; no, it couldn't.

Every game involving Wales that could go either way, only goes one way.

Well, excluding about half the games against Scotland for the last 10 years.

yeah but those games don't include Aussie coaches. Or England. Or facking both!

Spiffy wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Sourdust wrote:The result wasn't particularly Cuthbert's fault.

But he was terrible. As everyone in Wales, including him - and probably including Howley - knew he would be.

The problem with Daly's try was simply down to Cuthberts positioning. He stayed far too narrow. Any pass on the money, which it was, put Daly on the outside. Cuthbert was always struggling as he never drifted properly.

The whole defence was too narrow. I would not blame it solely on Cuthbert. Daley would gas most wings with that space. It was down to Davies' daft kick out of his own goal area. Instead of hammering it into the stand he gave the ball back to England on a plate and they thankfully accepted. Wales had the match won at the time.

He's got Faletau inside him. There's no need for Cuthbert to stay narrow at all. It's a simple case of recognising the potential danger (i.e. s speedster out wide) and act accordingly.

Yes the kick to touch instead of infield. One more ruck and give it to Biggar etc, but even after failing to put he ball out (when will they learn!!!) it's was easily defendable.

Looking at the replay and Cuthbert looks half asleep as the Wnglish attack develops. He is hugely under confident and needs a break from the national side. Not his fault he was picked but a bad call, one of many, by howler. That said our composure in closing out tight games is a concern, how many games lost to the Aussies with a last minute lapse?

I see Biggar is getting good reviews and to one journalist the fly half debate is settled. Sorry but no, it not. Biggar had a good game in many respects. But we failed to unlock the Wnglush defence in that second half period of dominance. Watching Biggar take crash ball to the line, I do wonder about his decision making and ability to challenge a defence. It was same o same o in attack. Very little variety in passing or approach. We need to take some more risk than we are now, otherwise we are relying on brute force to hammer our way over the line.

I genuinely fear for our remaining games, we need to do much better.

Spiffy wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Sourdust wrote:The result wasn't particularly Cuthbert's fault.

But he was terrible. As everyone in Wales, including him - and probably including Howley - knew he would be.

The problem with Daly's try was simply down to Cuthberts positioning. He stayed far too narrow. Any pass on the money, which it was, put Daly on the outside. Cuthbert was always struggling as he never drifted properly.

The whole defence was too narrow. I would not blame it solely on Cuthbert. Daley would gas most wings with that space. It was down to Davies' daft kick out of his own goal area. Instead of hammering it into the stand he gave the ball back to England on a plate and they thankfully accepted. Wales had the match won at the time.

Correct, the Welsh defence was to narrow and England were trying work that all through the match, pull it in even more by having Hughes run at the defence and knowle cutting in field...the game plan was obviously to put the ball out wide for the dot down once everything was in position. It wasn't just a lucky try, it was worked.

Bad kick aside the attack was pretty much executed as planned by the English backs once the Welsh clustered positioning was recognised. Just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean, they got caught out eventually, see Jonny May's run prior on the right wing, it's was down to the Welsh back row in the rucks and rush up defence prevented England trying the move before.....

Who was directing the defence for wales on the pitch? Some blame lies there as well and you cannot blame the coach either.

Even now in the cold light of day, and with the emotion and SA worn off, i'm still gutted we lost that one. We don't seem to score enough points when we're on top and old weaknesses like the lineout going awry at a crucial moment (thinking after Biggar intercepted here) keep coming back to haunt us. Throw in some strange selection/substitution decisions and it was all there to make life harder than it should have been at the end. Still some great individual performances but we really do need a change in our approach. The ways of gatland and now howley are looking increasingly outmoded.

Nightynight wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:
The problem with Daly's try was simply down to Cuthberts positioning. He stayed far too narrow. Any pass on the money, which it was, put Daly on the outside. Cuthbert was always struggling as he never drifted properly.

The whole defence was too narrow. I would not blame it solely on Cuthbert. Daley would gas most wings with that space. It was down to Davies' daft kick out of his own goal area. Instead of hammering it into the stand he gave the ball back to England on a plate and they thankfully accepted. Wales had the match won at the time.

Correct, the Welsh defence was to narrow and England were trying work that all through the match, pull it in even more by having Hughes run at the defence and knowle cutting in field...the game plan was obviously to put the ball out wide for the dot down once everything was in position. It wasn't just a lucky try, it was worked.

Bad kick aside the attack was pretty much executed as planned by the English backs once the Welsh clustered positioning was recognised. Just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean, they got caught out eventually, see Jonny May's run prior on the right wing, it's was down to the Welsh back row in the rucks and rush up defence prevented England trying the move before.....

Who was directing the defence for wales on the pitch? Some blame lies there as well and you cannot blame the coach either.

Cuthbert was a rabbit in the headlights. But he should not have been in that position as the ball should have been off the park.

Sandydragon wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Spiffy wrote:
The whole defence was too narrow. I would not blame it solely on Cuthbert. Daley would gas most wings with that space. It was down to Davies' daft kick out of his own goal area. Instead of hammering it into the stand he gave the ball back to England on a plate and they thankfully accepted. Wales had the match won at the time.

Correct, the Welsh defence was to narrow and England were trying work that all through the match, pull it in even more by having Hughes run at the defence and knowle cutting in field...the game plan was obviously to put the ball out wide for the dot down once everything was in position. It wasn't just a lucky try, it was worked.

Bad kick aside the attack was pretty much executed as planned by the English backs once the Welsh clustered positioning was recognised. Just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean, they got caught out eventually, see Jonny May's run prior on the right wing, it's was down to the Welsh back row in the rucks and rush up defence prevented England trying the move before.....

Who was directing the defence for wales on the pitch? Some blame lies there as well and you cannot blame the coach either.

Cuthbert was a rabbit in the headlights. But he should not have been in that position as the ball should have been off the park.

It didn't, it happens and by the time the ball went in to daily's hands it was done. The work was the running and passing that fixed an already narrow defence.

Nightynight wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Nightynight wrote:
Correct, the Welsh defence was to narrow and England were trying work that all through the match, pull it in even more by having Hughes run at the defence and knowle cutting in field...the game plan was obviously to put the ball out wide for the dot down once everything was in position. It wasn't just a lucky try, it was worked.

Bad kick aside the attack was pretty much executed as planned by the English backs once the Welsh clustered positioning was recognised. Just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean, they got caught out eventually, see Jonny May's run prior on the right wing, it's was down to the Welsh back row in the rucks and rush up defence prevented England trying the move before.....

Who was directing the defence for wales on the pitch? Some blame lies there as well and you cannot blame the coach either.

Cuthbert was a rabbit in the headlights. But he should not have been in that position as the ball should have been off the park.

It didn't, it happens and by the time the ball went in to daily's hands it was done. The work was the running and passing that fixed an already narrow defence.

I know it didn't from watching the game. My point is that it should have been kicked dead.

It was a well executed English attack caused by a Welsh mistake. And you can blame the coach for picking a player badly out of form and confidence.

Watching it again, I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position. It really would have been for Daily to fook up

Nightynight wrote:Watching it again, I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position. It really would have been for Daily to fook up

Imagine the same scene with Halfpenny in Cuthbert's position. I don't see a certain try, far from it.

Discreet Hooker wrote:That game could have gone either way lads . Some certainties , the press got it right about the welsh back row running the game , Warbuton had his best game , Cuthbert surely has had his last game , Halfpenny will score penalties but offers little in attack , you don't miss Roberts .

If only. Let's hope Halfpenny, North and Liam are all fit for the rest of the competition, otherwise I expect we will see Cuthbert again.

Moriarty's substitution, Cuthbert's selection, Sam Davies's 0 minutes yesterday after his performance the previous week.

Great message to the players from Howley: play as well or as badly as you like, I will still choose my favourites.

Obviously Howler took Moriarty off as he thought he was tired and left Cuthbert on as he'd not done a great deal in the game and therefore had plenty of gas left in the tank.

And if you take that a bit further it means that Moriarty will be on the bench for the next match and Cuthbert will start.

It's all starting to make sense now the cunning monkey

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Watching it again, I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position. It really would have been for Daily to fook up

Imagine the same scene with Halfpenny in Cuthbert's position. I don't see a certain try, far from it.

Halfpenny? But speed wise, halfpenny hasn't got the afterburners anymore, so still a try. the Welsh players to left were effectively almost held static by the 2 passes Cuthbert was static and left with a gap either side of him in effect with a player running at him at speed, Hobson's choice at that point.

If the Welsh players had run forward closing the gap to England's line and cuthbert had closed on daily before the pass, but that would have meant the Welsh players were reading the play, (the play England had been trying to use all match). Which is my point, they weren't as a group and just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean.


IMO George north would have not even got a hand to Daily....

I think the point is that it Cuthbert had managed to pull out a special bit of defending at the end, it might have gone some way to justifying his inclusion.

As it was, everyone on planet Earth said "Oh no, Cuthbert, he'll be awful!", and he was awful, and then in the crucial moment he failed to be brilliant, as tends to happen when you're awful.

Moot point really, its not like cuthbert hasn't been picked before.

And anyway if wales had won, the English supporters would have cried we were robbed by the ref for not yellow carding the deliberate knock on in the first half by Welsh scrum half .... :

Nightynight wrote:Moot point really, its not like cuthbert hasn't been picked before.

And anyway if wales had won, the English supporters would have cried we were robbed by the ref for not yellow carding the deliberate knock on in the first half by Welsh scrum half .... :

And Moriarty's late hit on Farrell (if I meet him I will shake his hand though!)

People are being a bit harsh blaming Cuthbert for the try, it was a well worked move. If New Zealand had scored that some would be creaming themselves. Watching it again I was surprised that Biggar, who was coming across as sweeper, gave up on covering very early and was then waving his arms about like it was someone elses fault!

oldbackrow wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Moot point really, its not like cuthbert hasn't been picked before.

And anyway if wales had won, the English supporters would have cried we were robbed by the ref for not yellow carding the deliberate knock on in the first half by Welsh scrum half .... :

And Moriarty's late hit on Farrell (if I meet him I will shake his hand though!)

People are being a bit harsh blaming Cuthbert for the try, it was a well worked move. If New Zealand had scored that some would be creaming themselves. Watching it again I was surprised that Biggar, who was coming across as sweeper, gave up on covering very early and was then waving his arms about like it was someone elses fault!

Quite, also interesting that the Scottish nob on the Beeb is pointing out sinckler was instrumental is causing the bad kick, so who is to blame for that? The forwards? Bigger? (clearly for just lumbering back leaving, Davies to kick). Was it tip's? just jogging sideways behind the Welsh line and not helping fill the gap in the line leaving cuthbert out on his own in space?

Nightynight wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Watching it again, I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position. It really would have been for Daily to fook up

Imagine the same scene with Halfpenny in Cuthbert's position. I don't see a certain try, far from it.

Halfpenny? But speed wise, halfpenny hasn't got the afterburners anymore, so still a try. the Welsh players to left were effectively almost held static by the 2 passes Cuthbert was static and left with a gap either side of him in effect with a player running at him at speed, Hobson's choice at that point.

If the Welsh players had run forward closing the gap to England's line and cuthbert had closed on daily before the pass, but that would have meant the Welsh players were reading the play, (the play England had been trying to use all match). Which is my point, they weren't as a group and just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean.


IMO George north would have not even got a hand to Daily....

Halfpenny's in his prime, I don't know why you think he might have lost speed. Cuthbert got his hands on Daley, so Halfpenny definitely would have got to him. The difference is that he would have known how to get Daley down or into touch (even if he got concussed in the process!).

It's not a certainty that Halfpenny would have stopped Daley, but no way was that a certain try either.

Tosh, I might as well argue the Welsh scrum half should have been yellow carded in the first half and the game would have been a different score. Where was halfpenny anyway at that point... anywhere near? Anyway it's missing the point, it was the team let cuthbert down as much as just blaming cuthbert, it's just easier to blame him than the wider problem at that point that resulted in cuthbert being isolated on the end of the defence line.

Secondly, the fact the 'leaders on the pitch' at that point should have been covering and looking means you just can't blame the coach either....


As for halfpenny, I haven't seen great speed from him since his injury.

Nightynight wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Watching it again, I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position. It really would have been for Daily to fook up

Imagine the same scene with Halfpenny in Cuthbert's position. I don't see a certain try, far from it.

Halfpenny? But speed wise, halfpenny hasn't got the afterburners anymore, so still a try. the Welsh players to left were effectively almost held static by the 2 passes Cuthbert was static and left with a gap either side of him in effect with a player running at him at speed, Hobson's choice at that point.

If the Welsh players had run forward closing the gap to England's line and cuthbert had closed on daily before the pass, but that would have meant the Welsh players were reading the play, (the play England had been trying to use all match). Which is my point, they weren't as a group and just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean.


IMO George north would have not even got a hand to Daily....

Halfpenny is t that slow. But he is an intelligent player so might have made a better fist if the attempted tackle. Defence isn't Northa strong point so I don't think anyone on here would suggest that we would have done any better. North might have offered more with ball in hand than Cuthbert did, although north is currently living on borrowed time as he hasn't been hitting the heights of form either.

oldbackrow wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Moot point really, its not like cuthbert hasn't been picked before.

And anyway if wales had won, the English supporters would have cried we were robbed by the ref for not yellow carding the deliberate knock on in the first half by Welsh scrum half .... :

And Moriarty's late hit on Farrell (if I meet him I will shake his hand though!)

People are being a bit harsh blaming Cuthbert for the try, it was a well worked move. If New Zealand had scored that some would be creaming themselves. Watching it again I was surprised that Biggar, who was coming across as sweeper, gave up on covering very early and was then waving his arms about like it was someone elses fault!

Biggar can be a drama queen. He has matured a lot but that less wanted element of his game does occasionally appear.

Nightynight wrote:Moot point really, its not like cuthbert hasn't been picked before.
f .... :

Do we know it. The real question is why he continues to be picked.

Sandydragon wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Imagine the same scene with Halfpenny in Cuthbert's position. I don't see a certain try, far from it.

Halfpenny? But speed wise, halfpenny hasn't got the afterburners anymore, so still a try. the Welsh players to left were effectively almost held static by the 2 passes Cuthbert was static and left with a gap either side of him in effect with a player running at him at speed, Hobson's choice at that point.

If the Welsh players had run forward closing the gap to England's line and cuthbert had closed on daily before the pass, but that would have meant the Welsh players were reading the play, (the play England had been trying to use all match). Which is my point, they weren't as a group and just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean.


IMO George north would have not even got a hand to Daily....

Halfpenny is t that slow. But he is an intelligent player so might have made a better fist if the attempted tackle. Defence isn't Northa strong point so I don't think anyone on here would suggest that we would have done any better. North might have offered more with ball in hand than Cuthbert did, although north is currently living on borrowed time as he hasn't been hitting the heights of form either.

Halfpenny! This is straw man argument.... halfpenny wasn't there, the option would have been north. This is just diverting from the other defensive issues that led to that try. Blaming individuals and the coach, sorry your players need to have a look at why THEY lost the game... lost being the operative word before they will move on.