RugbyRebels

No news on Itoje though? That's promising.

Puja

p/d wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

p/d wrote:Smith will be lucky to make the 23. Dropping Ford has meant he can play his captain at 10, with Mallins covering.

Farrell’s place in the team was most in doubt. But now he has cleared that and can use the ‘Smith lack of experience’ as justification

That and we’ve now got a 12 option who is even slower than Farrell.

Hey, Catty was 31 when he came on and put the spark into our 2003 campaign.
To think he was there because King was injured…

Catt had also been playing for England since 1994.

Digby wrote:I'm not sure living somewhere 5 years rather than 3 makes that much difference just on the time side of things, but being willing to commit through an entire WC cycle is a thing.

It's also recommitting to stay in the country beyond an initial "Sure, yeah, I'd like a bigger paycheque" contract. Shows that you at least vaguely like living there.

Puja

Puja wrote:No news on Itoje though? That's promising.

Puja

Or complicated.

Peej wrote:A wild guess of Marchant for Watson for his utility

Ford, Jones was just playing silly buggers.

Danno wrote:

Puja wrote:No news on Itoje though? That's promising.

Puja

Or complicated.

Itoje available, injury not serious.

Joe Marchant has been called in to the squad to replace Watson. Good decision imo.

LCD is out for a reasonable length of time(several months) with his ankle and is still awaiting results on a scan of his knee as well I was reliably informed this arvo.

Puja wrote:

p/d wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
That and we’ve now got a 12 option who is even slower than Farrell.

Hey, Catty was 31 when he came on and put the spark into our 2003 campaign.
To think he was there because King was injured…

Catt had also been playing for England since 1994.

Digby wrote:I'm not sure living somewhere 5 years rather than 3 makes that much difference just on the time side of things, but being willing to commit through an entire WC cycle is a thing.

It's also recommitting to stay in the country beyond an initial "Sure, yeah, I'd like a bigger paycheque" contract. Shows that you at least vaguely like living there.

Puja

Take away the WC cycle and I'd tend to more that people are different, some might be committed after 6 months to their new home and stay forever, some may intend to leave as soon as they finish playing even if they've been here a dozen years. And certainly if the distinction is merely between 3 and 5 years I don't take the view 5 years good, 3 years bad. It's the missing out on a WC which works for me.

Though I remain concerned what we've done in part is to increase the interest in shipping over talented 17 and 18 year olds

Timbo wrote:Joe Marchant has been called in to the squad to replace Watson. Good decision imo.

He's quality. Exactly what your mid field is missing, depending on how the undroppable wooden soldier is deployed, of course.

Timbo wrote:Joe Marchant has been called in to the squad to replace Watson. Good decision imo.

It's not really a like for like. Marchant is a good centre who has been playing pretty well on the wing lately, so he can cover two slots. But as a wing I'd say he was a bit short of top end pace. Hassell-Collins or Thorley would have been interesting alternatives.

Spiffy wrote:

Timbo wrote:Joe Marchant has been called in to the squad to replace Watson. Good decision imo.

It's not really a like for like. Marchant is a good centre who has been playing pretty well on the wing lately, so he can cover two slots. But as a wing I'd say he was a bit short of top end pace. Hassell-Collins or Thorley would have been interesting alternatives.

Unfortunately Thorley hasn’t been near international level form for almost a year now. Personally I really like Slieghtholme, so would have been happy enough to see him in there.

Marchant is quick enough. I’ve been in the ground and seen him fly past Lions test wing Liam Williams. He’s a very intelligent player, very quick over the first 5 yards and has about enough top end pace to get by I reckon.

I’d be really excited to see Marchant get some real meaningful time against the big boys but I don’t see it happening. EJ has taken a vague interest a few times, enough to see quite a lot of him in various camps, but it’s never felt like there was really a spot open for him. Still Eddie hadn’t immediately thought to include him in this transitional/experimental squad.

I’m not saying Eddie was wrong to do so, but I hope if Marchant gets a chance to do more than just fill in at training that he really takes it. He is an immensely talented all rounder. A bit like Joseph he had a fantastic base level of performance while also being capable of changing a game with a big play, but it feels like he’s missing some sort of USP.

I was a big Slade fan for a long time but I can’t believe he’s at 40 caps now and it still feels like I’m on edge waiting for him to do something awful at any moment. Though his pairing with Tuilagi did briefly look pretty interesting.

Slade has always promised to disappoint. Much like Farrell, Daly, Billy and, more recently, Ewels it's just a weird Eddie thing that rewards I-do-not-know-what over form and/or ability.

Meanwhile players seem, at least to us, to get overlooked again and again. Robson ( for a good couple of years), Marchant (who did that Holy Grail thing of playing in the SH), Simmonds x2, even Ewers and Armand when he was persisting with Robshaw and Haskell (both of whom then played out of their skin on the Aus tour), Dunn getting stiffed with 3 minutes of caps, Odogwu wirh barely a cameo and so on. He basically threatened to not play Itoje early in his tenure but I guess even he couldn't ignore him.

He's done a lot right but he's done a lot to baffle. And continues to do so.

See current training squad for citations.

EJ is weird as fuck.[

Mikey Brown wrote:I’d be really excited to see Marchant get some real meaningful time against the big boys but I don’t see it happening. EJ has taken a vague interest a few times, enough to see quite a lot of him in various camps, but it’s never felt like there was really a spot open for him. Still Eddie hadn’t immediately thought to include him in this transitional/experimental squad.

I’m not saying Eddie was wrong to do so, but I hope if Marchant gets a chance to do more than just fill in at training that he really takes it. He is an immensely talented all rounder. A bit like Joseph he had a fantastic base level of performance while also being capable of changing a game with a big play, but it feels like he’s missing some sort of USP.

I was a big Slade fan for a long time but I can’t believe he’s at 40 caps now and it still feels like I’m on edge waiting for him to do something awful at any moment. Though his pairing with Tuilagi did briefly look pretty interesting.

Slade is a talented footballer with adequate speed, a big left boot, good enough defence, and play-making skills. But instead of waiting for him to do something awful, I suspect that most fans are waiting for him to do something brilliant. He always seems to play quite well without ever bossing or stamping his mark on a game. Still, he seems to be maturing even at this at stage and
is playing some good rugby at present. I am one of those who think he may have missed the boat by not having been developed as a second play maker at 12. I do like the notion of a Slade/Tuilagi midfield, with the pair of them changing slots depending on the plays.

Danno wrote:Slade has always promised to disappoint. Much like Farrell, Daly, Billy and, more recently, Ewels it's just a weird Eddie thing that rewards I-do-not-know-what over form and/or ability.

Meanwhile players seem, at least to us, to get overlooked again and again. Robson ( for a good couple of years), Marchant (who did that Holy Grail thing of playing in the SH), Simmonds x2, even Ewers and Armand when he was persisting with Robshaw and Haskell (both of whom then played out of their skin on the Aus tour), Dunn getting stiffed with 3 minutes of caps, Odogwu wirh barely a cameo and so on. He basically threatened to not play Itoje early in his tenure but I guess even he couldn't ignore him.

He's done a lot right but he's done a lot to baffle. And continues to do so.

See current training squad for citations.

EJ is weird as fuck.[

I will go to my grave still believing Dave Ewers could do a job for England, even if he was already in his!

Odogwu got injured. Eddie can't help with that.

It would have been fascinating to see how Udogwu got on. The timing really was awful.

He offers something so different to the other options, though I imagine as a centre and being about 5’4” it may have been hard to cement a spot, rightly or wrongly.

If only there had been a chance to give Odogwu a run when he was in form and fit......

Mellsblue wrote:“One of the things we’re looking for is the team having a really aggressive attacking mindset, attacking the space”. Not sure how you go from that to dropping Ford. If Smith is injured then you can say goodbye to that, unless Farrell can reinvent himself. Ford must be sat there wondering why Jones has had him play/kick by numbers and then dropped him when there is a game plan that could get the best out of him.

You have to go back to the days of Tom Croft and Tom Rees to find England forwards regularly doing that! Sam Simmonds could add this (as could Ben Earl of course but somebody decided to drop him )

SDHoneymonster wrote:I will go to my grave still believing Dave Ewers could do a job for England, even if he was already in his!

I thought Brad Shields was pretty useless for England but now that he has settled into the English game he has become an effective player with a broad skill-set. I'd suggest that he and Dave Ewers are now pretty much on a par with Shields a marginally better line-out option and Ewers a marginally stronger carrier. I see both as potentially useful lumps at 6 should that be required to balance the back row with, say, Curry and Simmonds. The alternatives, per Jones, are Martin, Itoje or Lawes, presumably. I'd still like to see Isiekwe tried.

fivepointer wrote:If only there had been a chance to give Odogwu a run when he was in form and fit......

In fairness, England were playing so atrociously in the 6N that there's every chance Odogwu dodged a bullet, and we'd have another Ollie Lawrence scenario on our hands where a hugely promising young player has been set back quite dramatically if he'd gotten on to the park.

Oakboy wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:I will go to my grave still believing Dave Ewers could do a job for England, even if he was already in his!

I thought Brad Shields was pretty useless for England but now that he has settled into the English game he has become an effective player with a broad skill-set. I'd suggest that he and Dave Ewers are now pretty much on a par with Shields a marginally better line-out option and Ewers a marginally stronger carrier. I see both as potentially useful lumps at 6 should that be required to balance the back row with, say, Curry and Simmonds. The alternatives, per Jones, are Martin, Itoje or Lawes, presumably. I'd still like to see Isiekwe tried.

Shields now seemingly forgotten, which seems odd as as you say, he's started to grow into the English game nicely. Would fill a Josh Navidi-style all rounder role across the back row really well and thanks to his Kiwi upbringing his handling skills and support running are just that touch more instinctive than your average English blindside's, so he adds plenty of positives on both sides of the ball. Ewers sadly seems destined to go down with Dan Robson as the unluckiest English player of his generation, although Robson at least can say he actually got to pull on the jersey. That said, if Jones is willing to overlook age in the case of Atkinson then I suppose there's hope yet.

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:I will go to my grave still believing Dave Ewers could do a job for England, even if he was already in his!

I thought Brad Shields was pretty useless for England but now that he has settled into the English game he has become an effective player with a broad skill-set. I'd suggest that he and Dave Ewers are now pretty much on a par with Shields a marginally better line-out option and Ewers a marginally stronger carrier. I see both as potentially useful lumps at 6 should that be required to balance the back row with, say, Curry and Simmonds. The alternatives, per Jones, are Martin, Itoje or Lawes, presumably. I'd still like to see Isiekwe tried.

Shields now seemingly forgotten, which seems odd as as you say, he's started to grow into the English game nicely. Would fill a Josh Navidi-style all rounder role across the back row really well and thanks to his Kiwi upbringing his handling skills and support running are just that touch more instinctive than your average English blindside's, so he adds plenty of positives on both sides of the ball. Ewers sadly seems destined to go down with Dan Robson as the unluckiest English player of his generation, although Robson at least can say he actually got to pull on the jersey. That said, if Jones is willing to overlook age in the case of Atkinson then I suppose there's hope yet.

Ewers is a funny one, because his strength - in the ruck, maul, and support, as well as direct carrying - is just such a phenomenal X-factor that you feel like he'd have to play, but he's just not mobile enough for the international game. He'd be worse for our breakdown and ball retention than playing Lawes at 6 and we'd get targeted by every other international side. You'd have to build a pack around his weaknesses.

It's a shame, cause there are occasions where he could really do a job (that period in the RWC final where we were 3 points down and camped on their line without being able to get over, for example), but he's just not balanced enough of a player to make it at the top level.

Puja

jngf wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:“One of the things we’re looking for is the team having a really aggressive attacking mindset, attacking the space”. Not sure how you go from that to dropping Ford. If Smith is injured then you can say goodbye to that, unless Farrell can reinvent himself. Ford must be sat there wondering why Jones has had him play/kick by numbers and then dropped him when there is a game plan that could get the best out of him.

You have to go back to the days of Tom Croft and Tom Rees to find England forwards regularly doing that! Sam Simmonds could add this (as could Ben Earl of course but somebody decided to drop him )

Croft and Rees were fine players, but the period they played in was hardly the golden days of English rugby. Injury also robbed Rees of the opportunity to make any real impact for England so I don’t really know why you’re holding these two up as an example of what good looks like?

Earl had flattered to deceive. Good player, but realistically he’s competing with Curry, Underhill and now Simmonds which makes him distinctly the 4th choice and probably why he’s not in the squad.

There’s plenty I don’t like about this squad, but the back row is one of the best groups we’ve had.

Fast player = good attack.