Should Georgia & Romania be added to the 6 Nations?

[Mellsblue]

Romania into a 7-0 lead over Russia, not a good game so far. The Russians did this time allow the whole Romanian team in and didn't dick about with visas as they've done in the past, though they did only give them a hotel car park to train in so the Russians haven't yet grasped all the requirements of a host

Shouldn't this be in the anti-Russian rhetoric thread?

[rowan]

Rugby Europe (governing body for 48 member nations) is asking for the 6 Nations to be open to other nations. Wants an open dialogue to start pic.twitter.com/UYaM9gz5R0

[rowan]

It's all in writing now:

Thursday 9 March 2017: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



RUGBY EUROPE FORMALIZE ITS REQUEST TO THE “6 NATIONS”

Official request has been approved by Rugby Europe Board of Directors



The first meeting of Rugby Europe Board of Directors, elected during the last December General Assembly Meeting, took place this Thursday March 9th in Paris.

Discussion about “6 Nations opening to the other European unions” was among topics on the agenda of the meeting.

“The development of rugby in Europe entails each Union having the opportunity to play regularly with the best teams in order to raise standards. Promotion / relegation system belongs to Rugby Europe ethical code in all our competitions” – declared M. Octavian Morariu, President of Rugby Europe.

Thereby, the 17 Members of Board of Directors, representing the 48 unions affiliated to the European governing body, validated unanimously the drafting and sending of an official Letter to the 6 Nations Limited company, to open dialogue about a closer integration of competitions and particularly the opening of the 6 Nations Tournament to the other European unions.

“It is not about punishing a specific team because of its results in the Tournament. We don’t want to compromise what has been achieved until now, but opening a dialogue seems to us crucial for the benefit of all. On a sports point of view considering the development and future of our sport; for economic consideration as Europe cannot be limited to 6 countries; and finally, politically, because we are a continent whose official governing body is Rugby Europe.

We are open to consider all alternatives, either a direct relegation, the insertion of an annual or every two-year play-off system; the integration of one or two teams or the setup of a real European competition, etc… We are aware this process will require time to build a common project and achieve it; but we need to start a real collaboration in the interests of European rugby growth.”

The request will be officially sent by letter in the next few days.

Meanwhile, Rugby Europe Championship 2017 continues as an opportunity to access to the next Rugby World Cup 2019. The fourth round will be played this week-end with 3 games: on Saturday: Germany / Spain and Belgium/ Romania. On Sunday: Georgia / Russia. The last round will take place the week after with a Romania/Georgia clash which will crown the 2017 Champion. All games are live-streamed on www.rugbyeurope.tv



Rugby Europe is the governing body responsible for the promotion, development, administration and management of international competitions for the 48 member unions across Europe. The association organizes over 80 international games and 20 rugby tournaments each year, among which Men’s fifteen-a-side European Championships (Championship, Trophy, Conference 1 & 2, Development), U20 and U18 European Championships and the 7s’ Grand Prix Series (Men and Women).



http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/rugby-europe- ... -6-nations

[rowan]

I think the very most we can hope for here is the addition of a promotion-relegation fixture or home & away series, and possibly not taking effect until another decade or so, given the pace things generally move at in rugby. But I'd certainly settle for that. More likely, however, they'll keep stalling for another decade or so, and then finally cave in some time in the late 2020s, with the belated changes effective in the 2030s . . .

[rowan]

44K tickets sold for Georgia's home-game against Russia tomorrow, with a 55K capacity crowd expected. Sounds to me like georgia's read to start hosting some tier 1 nations, at the very least. Meanwhile, forget about Germany, Spain is fastest improving team in the top division at present, as demonstrated by today's comfortable win in Cologne...

[richy678]

its kinda understandable that when Romania were certainly strong enough to compete before - in the very late 1970's and 1980's they were politically unacceptable under Chouszekou(? spelling) and pre communist state collapse.
Politics shouldn't be a part of sport - but it certainly was at that period.
I would like to see promotion and relegation, but similar to arguments about how to organise and fund a professional elite league game in some countries, it would be absolute disaster for some countries to be relegated, so there is a valid counter argument for ring fencing.
I do not feel comfortable with not engaging with Georgia and Romania and others - possibly Spain and Portugal, the Autumn Internationals used to provide this opportunity.
The sevens game is providing an excellent showcase and shop window - but it is not a chance for emerging nations to build a home international, 15 a side, national pride and culture thing into their DNA.

[rowan]

Playing numbers have dropped considerably in Romania since the collapse of communism and civil war. Add to that, Hagi magic at the 1994 FIFA World Cup, and rugby disappeared from the main sports pages altogether. There are now a little over 10K registered players, putting it roughly on a par with Germany, Holland & Belgium, but well behind Russia and Spain. Right now I think the latter two are, aside from Georgia, the most promising nations in Europe.

[Digby]

Playing numbers have dropped considerably in Romania since the collapse of communism and civil war. Add to that, Hagi magic at the 1994 FIFA World Cup, and rugby disappeared from the main sports pages altogether. There are now a little over 10K registered players, putting it roughly on a par with Germany, Holland & Belgium, but well behind Russia and Spain. Right now I think the latter two are, aside from Georgia, the most promising nations in Europe.

Why are Russia and Spain more promising nations than Romania?

Most weeks I'll speak to people in each of those unions, and the Romanian lads likely more often still. Nothing about the various groups would incline me to think other than Romania are by a distance clear of Russia and Spain, and whilst Georgia are better at the elite level now I wouldn't be surprised if Romania went past them (nor would I be surprised if Georgia remained in the ascendancy), we don't know how the future will unfold but the Romania efforts are perhaps being led by building a strong club base and trying to build an interest in rugby at schools level.

I suppose if one simply looks at the registered players then that tells a story, but those figures vary horribly in how they're captured across different nations, and they don't inform much about where the unions are looking to grow their game.

About the only area the Russians might be ahead of Romania would have been their ability to evade drug testing, and even that's in doubt now.

[rowan]

Playing numbers have dropped considerably in Romania since the collapse of communism and civil war. Add to that, Hagi magic at the 1994 FIFA World Cup, and rugby disappeared from the main sports pages altogether. There are now a little over 10K registered players, putting it roughly on a par with Germany, Holland & Belgium, but well behind Russia and Spain. Right now I think the latter two are, aside from Georgia, the most promising nations in Europe.

Why are Russia and Spain more promising nations than Romania?

Most weeks I'll speak to people in each of those unions, and the Romanian lads likely more often still. Nothing about the various groups would incline me to think other than Romania are by a distance clear of Russia and Spain, and whilst Georgia are better at the elite level now I wouldn't be surprised if Romania went past them (nor would I be surprised if Georgia remained in the ascendancy), we don't know how the future will unfold but the Romania efforts are perhaps being led by building a strong club base and trying to build an interest in rugby at schools level.

I suppose if one simply looks at the registered players then that tells a story, but those figures vary horribly in how they're captured across different nations, and they don't inform much about where the unions are looking to grow their game.

About the only area the Russians might be ahead of Romania would have been their ability to evade drug testing, and even that's in doubt now.

Jeez, the Russophobia even creeps into your comments about rugby now. Let's leave the politics out of rugby thread, shall we...

You've also made a fairly simplistic presumption about my view on Spain & Russia. It's by no means based solely on reg. player numbers at all, or else Georgia wouldn't even be a factor. It's mostly about the club scenes in those two nations, the economy and proximity to Europe of Spain - and thereby close association with France (where most of its national squad is based), and the sheer size of both Russia as a nation and many Russians as a people - among other factors.

[Digby]

Again I'm not anti-Russian, I've been to Russia plenty of times and there's an awful lot I've enjoyed about the place, I did turn down a chance to work there more permanently, but I've done that in Dublin too as a for instance and I'm not accused of being anti-Irish too often. Also about the only line one might take as anti-Russian there is that they're massive drugs cheats, and that's not anti-Russian, it's that they had a massive state sponsored doping regime, albeit it probably ignored rugby as it's just not important enough

The club scene in Romania is without doubt way ahead of Spain, and is across the group of top flight clubs ahead of Russia, I don't know if you've actually watched any rugby from the various nations there but it doesn't looks a close run thing.

If it's about the size of the economy then most tier 1 teams are in trouble as they make way for the new rugby order. If economies do dictate sporting achievement in rugby however then yes at some point Russia will go past Romania, and indeed all the current tier 1 nations.

[rowan]

I've only watched games on Youtube and read about the club set-ups on various sites. I'm not claiming expertise; just giving my opinion based on that limited amount of insight.

[rowan]

55K on hand for Georgia v Russia today. Still no tier 1 team to have played there yet. Only in rugby!!

[Digby]

55K on hand for Georgia v Russia today. Still no tier 1 team to have played there yet. Only in rugby!!

With tickets kicking about at GEL 10 (that's 10 laris) or about £3 in GBP that's not really a surprise. Rightly or wrongly the tier 1 nations use the test matches to raise a huge proportion of the money that's kicking about in rugby trying to sustain a domestic game in the tier 1 countries. You could sell out a stadium twice the size of any in Georgia, and at those prices you'll struggle to generate much enthusiasm from the supposed big boys.

[rowan]

That's a shoot-yourself-in-the-foot approach that will ensure the game remains confined to a very small group of nations at the top level. It's not about the strength of the currency. It's about the phenomenal interest being shown in the game there. & I'm sure if they could sell 55K tickets at £3 to watch Georgia play battling Russia (having a poor season by their own relatively mediocre standards); you'd have no trouble selling 55K tickets at two or three times the price for a match against one of the 6 Nations, and probably closer to £20 for one of the Southern Hemisphere giants. Stop finding reasons to hold the game back. It's ready to go places if given half a chance.

[Digby]

Who's looking for reasons to hold the game back? Take some games to Romania, they're already charging plenty more than in Georgia, and Georgia is more than some of the Russian games, there are games in Russia with the tickets given away for free

[Digby]

I might as well add though for all some ticket prices are better in Romania their TV monies are god awful. Superliga is basically given away for free, and they struggle to find someone who wants it for that

[rowan]

Wonder what the TV figures were for Georgia v Russia, if there was 55K in the stadium. I've heard that Georgia consistently has among the highest viewing audiences per capita for the quadrennial World Cup events. What seems a little surprising to me is that not even the French have visited Tbilisi for a test. They had a (more or less) annual fixture going with Romania for quite some time during the amateur era, and that undoubtedly contributed to the Oaks' meteoric rise in the 80s. The French were similarly pro-active when it came to Argentina, Italy & others. But they've shown no interest in Georgia's national team at all, despite about half the Lelos squad plying their trade there. Probably it had mostly to do with the fact that France ran the FIRA up until the turn of the century, an organization they created themselves to foster the game outside of the established playing nations. But it now has direct representation on the World Rugby committee & been rebranded the ENC - without French involvement. Nonetheless, it's still a little surprising the French have only played Georgia once; & that occasion being at the World Cup 10 years ago . . .

[Digby]

Romania play Georgia this weekend, with at least one poster from here in attendance should they care to comment, and if they manage to stay sober enough to remember.

[rowan]

Are you in Bucharest then? If I'm not mistaken, the Arcul de Triumf only has a capacity of about 5K, so won't be a huge crowd like last week. I'm also anticipating a comfy Lelos' win - & 7th straight title.

[Digby]

It's not me. Which at least is good news for my liver.

I've got a feeling there are a lot of Brits at this one with some media interest, and Eggchasers doing a podcast, I was told the details but wasn't especially listening, but I think it might be Eggchasers issued a 100 tickets for their live podcast and almost none have gone locally, and thus the thinking there are lots of Brits going to be there. Or it might have been something really different, and I really wasn't listening

[rowan]

There is a very good article today on L'Equipe about Georgia. No doubt penned in anticipation of yet another ENC triumph:


Georgia, the "little big" behind the door

Archidominator in 6 Nations B, ahead of Italy on World Rugby rankings, Georgia is dreaming to play Six Nations. But the powerful organizers are looking at this little Caucasian country with disdain.

In the hotel Paseo Del Arte in Madrid, an old couple is waiting the elevator, but when the doors open on Nodar Cheishvili, Giorgi Nemsadze and Jaba Bregvadze, the couple step back one step and say "no, thanks, we will take the next". "They believe we eat childs" says Giorgi Nemsadze, 32 years old, 69 caps. "Some people even think that the georgians train by boxing against bears" laugh Milton Haig, the headcoach, 52 years old from New Zealand, who live in Tbilisi since 2012.

recommended by his mate Vern Cotter (they coached together Bay Of Plenty), Haig take part of the growth of Georgian rugby (4 million inhabitants) since 5 years. "At my debut, there was 7000 registred players. Now, they are 11000". Under him, Georgia lost only one 6 Nations B game. Last week, they won their 19th straight win in this competition, beating Russia 28-14 in front of 50 000 fans. This sunday, in Bucharest, they will play against Romania, in order to win their 4th Gran Slam in a row.

The day before playing Spain, in Medina del Campo (they won 20-10), two weeks ago, the second row Konstantin Mikautadze, who plays in France since eight years (currently at Montpellier) tells the situation : "We have dominated this championship for years, our last loss at home was in 2004. At this time I never heard of rugby, I played basketball. When I changed school, I discovered there is a sport with an oval ball. I could not believe it..." Like other leaders of the team, who are between 25 and 30 years old, he started rugby in precarious situation in the mid-2000s. There was only two rugby grounds, freed from Soviet domination in 1991, and youth players learn rugby on clay or concrete grounds. "about 20 meters by 40m, in the better case. The quarter of a real ground" explain Mikautadze. "The lack of skills of the backs comes mainly from there" says Milton Haig. "There was no space to pass the ball or made tactical kicks"

"we play only one big game per year, during november internationals" Milton Haig

Step by step, Georgian rugby gets structured. Today, even if he counts only three sponsors and tickets are sold 5 laris (€2) and TV don't pay rights, every game of the Didi10 (Georgian championship) is retransmitted. Since the last RWC, where Georgia won two games, players are recognized along the streets and childs are plays with rugby balls in parks.

Now, half of the team is playing domestic competitions. "Four years ago, they were only 3 or 4" explains Mamukashvili, who is playing for Toulon. "But Milton Haig has set up a system where best players of each club are made available two or three days per week in our national center, Shevardeni. It's like Marcoussis but a lot smaller" The most promising young players of the Akademia regularly meet the cadors of the Championship and all are supervised by Haig and his assistants.

"But our opportunities to grow are dwindling" tells Merab Sharikadze, who is the captain when Gorgodze is not playing. "Soon we will stagnate if nothing changes" Currently 12th, 3 ranks ahead of Italy who plays the Six Nations since 2000, Georgia suffers from the lack of game against better opponents. Haig "we play only one big game per year, during november internationals".

Image

So, since few years, voices rise, more and more, for the inclusion of Georgia in Six Nations. Some personalities like Clive Woodward, former England headcoach and winner of the 2003 RWC, support the opening of Six Nations. The Seven Nations or a play off between the winner of 6 Nations A and 6 Nations B. "No chance" responds John Feehan, chief of the Six Nations. "Six Nations is a closed tournament, it belongs to the six team, the 6 best teams in Europe, and we hare happy like that".

However, on March 9th, Rugby Europe - the federation of 49 European countries - officially filed a request for a structural change. "It's not going to happen in the near future," says Haig, realistic. "But now that the machine is launched, we will not stop making our voice heard. Our goal is not to integrate the Six Nations at any cost but to find opponents that will allow us to grow."

Last year, after the RWC, Haig, former director of advertising in a New Zealand newspaper, the Wanganui Chronicle, crisscrossed the meetings, inviting himself to the table of rugby world leaders. "In addition to my role as coach, I often represent Georgia to the government bodies". World Rugby, SANZAAR, he is everywhere. "Lately, we introduced a project to integrate Super Rugby. It's under study. But the most embarrassing thing about all this is that we sometimes have the impression of asking charity from the Tier1 nations. We want above all to bring something! Of course, we are not idiots, we understood that to enter the Six Nations Tournament, we had to pay a fee. But when we ask how many, no one answers us".

"Rugby is our family and they slam the door in our faces. It's humiliating" Merab Sharikadze.

Georgians also realized that a country like theirs, stuck in the East, on the edge of Europe and Asia is not very attractive, and a trip to Rome was better than a trip to Tbilisi, a city for which there is no direct flight from the United Kingdom or France. "They don't know what are they missing" says Haig "They would discover khinkali and katchapouri, they would learn that the wine was invented here more than eight thousand years ago, and that, after God, tourists are the The most important people on earth. Here, the rugby is supported by a big bank, Bank of Tbilisi, the Government and some rich patrons".

Players know they have to win games to make known their position. Merab Sharikadze, who stutied two years in England thanks to rugby, tells us "Rugby is a protectionist sport. There is only 20 decent teams in the world and you know why? Because big nations think this sport is their own sport. For us, as players, it's frustrating. Rugby is our family and they slam the door in our faces. It's humiliating. If a football (soccer) team deserves to play Euro, the team will. We are denied this opportunity"

Their struggle is silent, but week after week, on all the fields, the Georgian players are trying to leave a trace. "Four years ago", Shalva Mamukashvili says, "to symbolize our fight, a former player of the team had the idea to embroider, on the back of our jerseys, a vine and leaves spread out. Years ago, when the Georgian soldiers went to war, and it often happened, their family gave them grape pips they sewed in the back of their military jacket. And if they died in battle, and their bodies were not found long afterwards, a vine grew on the spot where they had fallen. Our generation may not know the Six Nations Tournament, but one day it will come because rugby can continues like this. On that day, the young people who succeed us will harvest the grapes of the vines that we have planted for years.."

Dominique Issartel, at Medina del Campo (Spain)

[Digby]

Not maybe a classic, but a good win for Romania over Georgia. Georgia still the better side at this level, but Romania had lost too many games in a row to them so it's good to get one back

http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/rugby-europe- ... vs-georgia

[rowan]

I'm really happy with the result actually, despite being a much bigger fan of the Lelos than the Oaks. The reason being that ENC division 1 was becoming a bore, and now the Lelos know they have a challenge on their hands to maintain their dominance. Since they're not looking like being permitted into the 6 Nations any time soon, a fierce rivalry within the ENC may be just the tonic for their continued progress. Of course, it's also good to see Romania back to form, especially after they hit rock bottom with that loss to Germany a wee while back. You don't want to see a former giant-killer reduced to minnow status, as occurred with Namibia, and which appears to happening more gradually to Canada as well. Hopefully this was no flash in the pan, and just as the Oaks received a wake-up call against Germany, the Lelos have received one here.

[Digby]

Anyone actually watching the games Georgia have played in would know they haven't all been easy wins. It's maybe a little akin to England's run of 18 wins, there were a lot of wins, but quite a few wins could've gone the other way.

[rowan]

Yes, I was thinking the same earlier. Georgia certainly struggled to overcome Russia. & Russia were awful earlier in the season, losing to Spain. But like Romania, the Bears have finished strongly and may well be showing at up in Japan if they continue. Spain, meanwhile, has had a great season and will push them all the way for that spot in the World Cup qualifying repechages.