Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Banquo]

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

[Puja]

How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

It's been a weird season so far - Leicester have consistently been missing half their team with either a flurry of injuries, a flurry of international call-ups, or both. Frankly, I'm quite pleased to have 4 wins from 8 and don't blame us for playing restrictive tactics when severely undermanned.

I'm giving them December to form a judgement on the second season, as we've got players back, a good run of games, and a chance to see what v2 of Leicester looks like.

Either way, I'd tend to agree that it is too early for the Borthwick ascension, but I'd definitely rather him as a caretaker than O'Shea.

Puja

[p/d]

One more page of posts and we will have to rename the thread; Eddie 'the innovator' Jones to lead England to WC success or Mellsblue works on his guns

[Mellsblue]

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

It's been a weird season so far - Leicester have consistently been missing half their team with either a flurry of injuries, a flurry of international call-ups, or both. Frankly, I'm quite pleased to have 4 wins from 8 and don't blame us for playing restrictive tactics when severely undermanned.

I'm giving them December to form a judgement on the second season, as we've got players back, a good run of games, and a chance to see what v2 of Leicester looks like.

Either way, I'd tend to agree that it is too early for the Borthwick ascension, but I'd definitely rather him as a caretaker than O'Shea.

Puja

Not sure maximising the hand that you’re dealt is innovative. From everything I’ve read, Borthwick is a top class coach, on and off the field, but he doesn’t strike me as innovative. Not that I’m desperate for someone innovative, necessarily, and not that I want to get drawn into this Dors shaped rabbit hole!

Looking forward 15 years, Ford has been undertaking a lot of coaching work at Sale whilst injured…

[Mellsblue]

All irrelevant. Kelly is back for Leicester in a Centre partnership with Porter. Jones will hanging on to their coat tails all the way to World Cup glory.

[Mellsblue]

Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

[fivepointer]

I like Squidge but he's simply wrong here. We were better in 2018 having won 3 out of 4 autumn games and only losing to NZ by a point. We were on an upward trajectory.
This whole year we have been dismal.

[Mr Mwenda]

Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

Although England have been poor for longer this time...

Regarding innovation, i do wonder if Jones has been sidetracked by trying to make the next big leap when frankly the squad quality actually requires a more basic approach.

[Puja]

Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

I think Squidge occasionally gloms onto things that aren't there and is trying to defend his prediction that England will win the RWC. I'll apologise if it turns out he's right and we are hiding our hand, but I don't believe it.

Apart from anything else, training is no substitute for match experience, so I question how much use tactics that have only sporadically been employed in actual matches will be. Surely this is the kind of thing that requires practice?

Puja

[Puja]

Decision allegedly being made next week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63835466

Puja

[Oakboy]

Decision allegedly being made next week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63835466

Puja

So, Cockerill it will be then!

[pandion]

I'd take Cockers over O'Shea in a heartbeat

[Banquo]

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

It's been a weird season so far - Leicester have consistently been missing half their team with either a flurry of injuries, a flurry of international call-ups, or both. Frankly, I'm quite pleased to have 4 wins from 8 and don't blame us for playing restrictive tactics when severely undermanned.

I'm giving them December to form a judgement on the second season, as we've got players back, a good run of games, and a chance to see what v2 of Leicester looks like.

Either way, I'd tend to agree that it is too early for the Borthwick ascension, but I'd definitely rather him as a caretaker than O'Shea.

Puja

Fair enough, but it’s limited fare in his tenure to date.

[Banquo]

I'd take Cockers over O'Shea in a heartbeat

Hobson’s choice that

[fivepointer]

At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

[Banquo]

Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

Although England have been poor for longer this time...

Regarding innovation, i do wonder if Jones has been sidetracked by trying to make the next big leap when frankly the squad quality actually requires a more basic approach.

Good point well made.

[Banquo]

One more page of posts and we will have to rename the thread; Eddie 'the innovator' Jones to lead England to WC success or Mellsblue works on his guns

I dunno, I think most are saying we need to move on, albeit obliquely.

[Oakboy]

At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

[p/d]

At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

[Banquo]

At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Unfortunately i suspect short term money issues might be the problem- which is short sighted. I've (not that what I think or say means jack shyte) given Jones a lot of rope, cos I thought I could see the wood for the trees.....but the continuous lack of sense from players, unforced errors (its offsides this month), lack of any sort of sensible backs strategy, and general meh in the way players take to the park has lead me to thinking he has to go. I can't fault him for looking at a raft of players and ways of changing up, but to Mr Mwenda's post, I think he should have been more focused on basics, player discipline, appropriate leadership, culture, and tactical selection. I think- like many coaches- he is past his sell by date with this team.

Also, quite ironic to be calling for this after a game when we were just plain beaten by a much better team- the errors probably made no difference. Our best front five and bench +/- Marler were plain 'nobbed'.

[Banquo]

At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

Tad of hyperbole there- even if the bar was set low, his return from 2015- 2019 was very good- tons of wins, grand slam, 6N champs, and RWC semi with a win against a decent NZ side and very good record v SH. No doubt disappointing from that point til now, despite some good results....and even then, an overall record that stands up. He should go, but think you are forgetting how shyte we were 2004-15, 2007 RWC aside. And I don't even like him.

[Mellsblue]

One more page of posts and we will have to rename the thread; Eddie 'the innovator' Jones to lead England to WC success or Mellsblue works on his guns

I’ll always work on the guns but, sadly, it’s more Russian conscripts than US Navy Seals.

[Oakboy]

At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Unfortunately i suspect short term money issues might be the problem- which is short sighted. I've (not that what I think or say means jack shyte) given Jones a lot of rope, cos I thought I could see the wood for the trees.....but the continuous lack of sense from players, unforced errors (its offsides this month), lack of any sort of sensible backs strategy, and general meh in the way players take to the park has lead me to thinking he has to go. I can't fault him for looking at a raft of players and ways of changing up, but to Mr Mwenda's post, I think he should have been more focused on basics, player discipline, appropriate leadership, culture, and tactical selection. I think- like many coaches- he is past his sell by date with this team.

Also, quite ironic to be calling for this after a game when we were just plain beaten by a much better team- the errors probably made no difference. Our best front five and bench +/- Marler were plain 'nobbed'.

I agree that keeping Jones on to save money is short-sighted in money terms. The game needs a boost, not another groan-fest.

[p/d]

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

Tad of hyperbole there- even if the bar was set low, his return from 2015- 2019 was very good- tons of wins, grand slam, 6N champs, and RWC semi with a win against a decent NZ side and very good record v SH. No doubt disappointing from that point til now, despite some good results....and even then, an overall record that stands up. He should go, but think you are forgetting how shyte we were 2004-15, 2007 RWC aside. And I don't even like him.

Of course it is hyperbole, but, II do believe the cracks have been glossed over for far too long and poised off that it has come this close to the WC for us to ignore the ‘talk’ and take note of what our eyes are seeing.
I really hold little interest in looking back all misty eyed when looking ahead

[Banquo]

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

Tad of hyperbole there- even if the bar was set low, his return from 2015- 2019 was very good- tons of wins, grand slam, 6N champs, and RWC semi with a win against a decent NZ side and very good record v SH. No doubt disappointing from that point til now, despite some good results....and even then, an overall record that stands up. He should go, but think you are forgetting how shyte we were 2004-15, 2007 RWC aside. And I don't even like him.

Of course it is hyperbole, but, II do believe the cracks have been glossed over for far too long and poised off that it has come this close to the WC for us to ignore the ‘talk’ and take note of what our eyes are seeing.
I really hold little interest in looking back all misty eyed when looking ahead

I hold little interest in hyperbole when trying to debate, as I've said a thousand times.