RugbyRebels

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:09 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:06 am

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:17 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:09 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am
How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:47 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:17 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:09 am

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

It's been a weird season so far - Leicester have consistently been missing half their team with either a flurry of injuries, a flurry of international call-ups, or both. Frankly, I'm quite pleased to have 4 wins from 8 and don't blame us for playing restrictive tactics when severely undermanned.

I'm giving them December to form a judgement on the second season, as we've got players back, a good run of games, and a chance to see what v2 of Leicester looks like.

Either way, I'd tend to agree that it is too early for the Borthwick ascension, but I'd definitely rather him as a caretaker than O'Shea.

Puja

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:40 pm Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:40 pm Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:02 pm Decision allegedly being made next week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63835466

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:47 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:17 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:09 am

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja

Borthwick did a cracking job of matching resources to game plan strength in his first head coach season and a half and implemented it well...but in his second and half season he's not moved that on after teams have studied what they are up (and its not the hardest of codes to crack)...plus he's lost Ford. The test for me is what happens next- he may only be able to do the one strategy (whilst varying the how its done v different opponents).

(and caveat, there may be some stuff that has changed and I've not seen enough of them, so its an impression based on seeing about 5 games and trying to remember last season )

It's been a weird season so far - Leicester have consistently been missing half their team with either a flurry of injuries, a flurry of international call-ups, or both. Frankly, I'm quite pleased to have 4 wins from 8 and don't blame us for playing restrictive tactics when severely undermanned.

I'm giving them December to form a judgement on the second season, as we've got players back, a good run of games, and a chance to see what v2 of Leicester looks like.

Either way, I'd tend to agree that it is too early for the Borthwick ascension, but I'd definitely rather him as a caretaker than O'Shea.

Puja

pandion wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:18 pm I'd take Cockers over O'Shea in a heartbeat

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:00 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:40 pm Squidge has his say. I sense a Welsh plot:

Although England have been poor for longer this time...

Regarding innovation, i do wonder if Jones has been sidetracked by trying to make the next big leap when frankly the squad quality actually requires a more basic approach.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:53 am One more page of posts and we will have to rename the thread; Eddie 'the innovator' Jones to lead England to WC success or Mellsblue works on his guns

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:49 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:49 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:57 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:49 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:53 am One more page of posts and we will have to rename the thread; Eddie 'the innovator' Jones to lead England to WC success or Mellsblue works on his guns

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:02 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:49 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm At least the RFU are treating this with some urgency. Thats a good thing.
It would be nice to know just who is on the review panel.
My prediction: Jones will be told to improve or else he'll be subject to a very sharp review after the 6N's. His card will be marked and the RFU will be very, very cross if he doesnt get better results.
We're stuck with him.

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Unfortunately i suspect short term money issues might be the problem- which is short sighted. I've (not that what I think or say means jack shyte) given Jones a lot of rope, cos I thought I could see the wood for the trees.....but the continuous lack of sense from players, unforced errors (its offsides this month), lack of any sort of sensible backs strategy, and general meh in the way players take to the park has lead me to thinking he has to go. I can't fault him for looking at a raft of players and ways of changing up, but to Mr Mwenda's post, I think he should have been more focused on basics, player discipline, appropriate leadership, culture, and tactical selection. I think- like many coaches- he is past his sell by date with this team.

Also, quite ironic to be calling for this after a game when we were just plain beaten by a much better team- the errors probably made no difference. Our best front five and bench +/- Marler were plain 'nobbed'.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:11 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:57 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:49 pm

5p, that is a depressing prediction. Please be wrong.

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

Tad of hyperbole there- even if the bar was set low, his return from 2015- 2019 was very good- tons of wins, grand slam, 6N champs, and RWC semi with a win against a decent NZ side and very good record v SH. No doubt disappointing from that point til now, despite some good results....and even then, an overall record that stands up. He should go, but think you are forgetting how shyte we were 2004-15, 2007 RWC aside. And I don't even like him.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:53 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:11 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:57 pm

Agree Dors. What a state of affairs, could have been dealt with long before. Set our bar low when we appointed him and now trying to tempt quality with shit on the end of it.

Tad of hyperbole there- even if the bar was set low, his return from 2015- 2019 was very good- tons of wins, grand slam, 6N champs, and RWC semi with a win against a decent NZ side and very good record v SH. No doubt disappointing from that point til now, despite some good results....and even then, an overall record that stands up. He should go, but think you are forgetting how shyte we were 2004-15, 2007 RWC aside. And I don't even like him.

Of course it is hyperbole, but, II do believe the cracks have been glossed over for far too long and poised off that it has come this close to the WC for us to ignore the ‘talk’ and take note of what our eyes are seeing.
I really hold little interest in looking back all misty eyed when looking ahead