RugbyRebels

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:08 am Nowell may have been lucky to get so many caps but that's hardly his fault.

Of course, we are back to Banquo's point (which I accept and understand). In terms of international winger standards, arguably, neither should get a shirt.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:08 am Nowell may have been lucky to get so many caps but that's hardly his fault.

Of course, we are back to Banquo's point (which I accept and understand). In terms of international winger standards, arguably, neither should get a shirt.

Didn't say it was, but your second point makes the first. I'm also pretty sure that he was selected ahead of better prospects or even proven intls (eg Daly on the wing), but that's not the key point.

(I also think your comparison to Coka is a bit misplaced tbh...I still hold out hopes that post injury and other stuff he could achieve the ceiling to which you refer)

Stom wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:25 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:08 am Nowell may have been lucky to get so many caps but that's hardly his fault.

Of course, we are back to Banquo's point (which I accept and understand). In terms of international winger standards, arguably, neither should get a shirt.

Didn't say it was, but your second point makes the first. I'm also pretty sure that he was selected ahead of better prospects or even proven intls (eg Daly on the wing), but that's not the key point.

(I also think your comparison to Coka is a bit misplaced tbh...I still hold out hopes that post injury and other stuff he could achieve the ceiling to which you refer)

I would also argue that it's not necessarily a winger's job to constantly be coming looking for work and being "busy", but to be there to finish off opportunities and to not fall off his tackles in defence.

The older and wiser I get, the more I come to appreciate Chris Ashton.

If you're coming looking for work, it should not take away from your ability to be in the right place at the right time to finish opportunities.

It's the same problem with Farrell getting himself buried in rucks or mauls pointlessly. It's not his job.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:03 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:25 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 am

Didn't say it was, but your second point makes the first. I'm also pretty sure that he was selected ahead of better prospects or even proven intls (eg Daly on the wing), but that's not the key point.

(I also think your comparison to Coka is a bit misplaced tbh...I still hold out hopes that post injury and other stuff he could achieve the ceiling to which you refer)

I would also argue that it's not necessarily a winger's job to constantly be coming looking for work and being "busy", but to be there to finish off opportunities and to not fall off his tackles in defence.

The older and wiser I get, the more I come to appreciate Chris Ashton.

If you're coming looking for work, it should not take away from your ability to be in the right place at the right time to finish opportunities.

It's the same problem with Farrell getting himself buried in rucks or mauls pointlessly. It's not his job.

Interesting points there. I wonder what proportion of Ashton's tries were wing-speciality efforts near the touchline. I have fond memories of him being effective with well-timed runs in the centre of the field. That leads me to question whether two line-hugging wingers will ever be the norm again.

In particular, your third sentence might apply to much-maligned Malins who, despite the criticism, does score pretty consistently - right place/right time when it matters.

Assuming everyone is fit, who should England's wingers be? I still think Daly and Watson should start with SB challenging the pretenders to prove they are better because, IMO, none of them are - yet.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:03 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:25 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 am

Didn't say it was, but your second point makes the first. I'm also pretty sure that he was selected ahead of better prospects or even proven intls (eg Daly on the wing), but that's not the key point.

(I also think your comparison to Coka is a bit misplaced tbh...I still hold out hopes that post injury and other stuff he could achieve the ceiling to which you refer)

I would also argue that it's not necessarily a winger's job to constantly be coming looking for work and being "busy", but to be there to finish off opportunities and to not fall off his tackles in defence.

The older and wiser I get, the more I come to appreciate Chris Ashton.

If you're coming looking for work, it should not take away from your ability to be in the right place at the right time to finish opportunities.

It's the same problem with Farrell getting himself buried in rucks or mauls pointlessly. It's not his job.

Interesting points there. I wonder what proportion of Ashton's tries were wing-speciality efforts near the touchline. I have fond memories of him being effective with well-timed runs in the centre of the field. That leads me to question whether two line-hugging wingers will ever be the norm again.

In particular, your third sentence might apply to much-maligned Malins who, despite the criticism, does score pretty consistently - right place/right time when it matters.

Assuming everyone is fit, who should England's wingers be? I still think Daly and Watson should start with SB challenging the pretenders to prove they are better because, IMO, none of them are - yet.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 7:35 am I don't think Malins looks frightened at that level.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 7:35 am

Backline wise, I'm still hoping to see.

9. JVP
10. Ford
11. Freeman
12. Kelly
13. Lawrence
14. Watson
15. Steward

Should provide a great mix. Would maybe be tempted to go Warr over JVP because of how well he's played this season.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 2:16 pm I think that the game might swing on the back three players and how well the chase and position during the kicking battle. Both of these sides will harshly punish any errors.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:03 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:25 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 am

Didn't say it was, but your second point makes the first. I'm also pretty sure that he was selected ahead of better prospects or even proven intls (eg Daly on the wing), but that's not the key point.

(I also think your comparison to Coka is a bit misplaced tbh...I still hold out hopes that post injury and other stuff he could achieve the ceiling to which you refer)

I would also argue that it's not necessarily a winger's job to constantly be coming looking for work and being "busy", but to be there to finish off opportunities and to not fall off his tackles in defence.

The older and wiser I get, the more I come to appreciate Chris Ashton.

If you're coming looking for work, it should not take away from your ability to be in the right place at the right time to finish opportunities.

It's the same problem with Farrell getting himself buried in rucks or mauls pointlessly. It's not his job.

Interesting points there. I wonder what proportion of Ashton's tries were wing-speciality efforts near the touchline. I have fond memories of him being effective with well-timed runs in the centre of the field. That leads me to question whether two line-hugging wingers will ever be the norm again.

In particular, your third sentence might apply to much-maligned Malins who, despite the criticism, does score pretty consistently - right place/right time when it matters.

Assuming everyone is fit, who should England's wingers be? I still think Daly and Watson should start with SB challenging the pretenders to prove they are better because, IMO, none of them are - yet.

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 10:52 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:03 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:25 pm

I would also argue that it's not necessarily a winger's job to constantly be coming looking for work and being "busy", but to be there to finish off opportunities and to not fall off his tackles in defence.

The older and wiser I get, the more I come to appreciate Chris Ashton.

If you're coming looking for work, it should not take away from your ability to be in the right place at the right time to finish opportunities.

It's the same problem with Farrell getting himself buried in rucks or mauls pointlessly. It's not his job.

Interesting points there. I wonder what proportion of Ashton's tries were wing-speciality efforts near the touchline. I have fond memories of him being effective with well-timed runs in the centre of the field. That leads me to question whether two line-hugging wingers will ever be the norm again.

In particular, your third sentence might apply to much-maligned Malins who, despite the criticism, does score pretty consistently - right place/right time when it matters.

Assuming everyone is fit, who should England's wingers be? I still think Daly and Watson should start with SB challenging the pretenders to prove they are better because, IMO, none of them are - yet.

Australia- inside ball from Palmer, scores about 10 metres in from touch.
Australia- brilliant offload off the deck from Croft, scores 5m to right of posts.
Australia- That try. Down the wing for about half but scored under sticks.
Wales- Tracks Floods inside shoulder on a right of centre field break, scores under sticks.
Wales- walkover in the right corner
Italy- Tracks Flood on inside on break down the centre, scores under the sticks
Italy- Offload from Hape just right of posts, scores just right of posts.
Italy- Pick and go in line with upright, scores under sticks
Italy- Tracks down middle as Banahan makes break in 13 channel going left, scores under sticks
Georgia- Tracks Wood on inside on break down middle, scores under sticks
Georgia- Scored in right corner off left hand corner scrum
Romania- Inside ball in midfield off right side lineout, goes over closer to left corner than posts but gets up and runs it round behind sticks.
Romania- Down wing, cuts infield a bit after crossing but touches down equidistant between corner and posts
Romania- Tracks Haskell on midfield break, veers out, scores in left hand corner
Scotland- Dives over in right corner
New Zealand- Tracks Tuilagi left of centre break, scores nearer left touchline that posts but not in corner
Scotland- Launchbury stopped just short just left of posts, Ashton barges over equidistant between posts and left corner.
Argentina- Right corner, overlap from close range ruck
New Zealand- Tracks Brown break down right touchline, inside pass, scores under sticks
New Zealand- Cut out from Youngs, dives over in corner.

I make that 5/20 in the corner (one of which was an in to out swerve so not really a classic wingers try).

I would also like to apologise for the excessive use of bold. No idea why that's happened.



Mod - fixed the bolding for you

Puja wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 11:21 pm

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 10:52 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:03 pm

Interesting points there. I wonder what proportion of Ashton's tries were wing-speciality efforts near the touchline. I have fond memories of him being effective with well-timed runs in the centre of the field. That leads me to question whether two line-hugging wingers will ever be the norm again.

In particular, your third sentence might apply to much-maligned Malins who, despite the criticism, does score pretty consistently - right place/right time when it matters.

Assuming everyone is fit, who should England's wingers be? I still think Daly and Watson should start with SB challenging the pretenders to prove they are better because, IMO, none of them are - yet.

Australia- inside ball from Palmer, scores about 10 metres in from touch.
Australia- brilliant offload off the deck from Croft, scores 5m to right of posts.
Australia- That try. Down the wing for about half but scored under sticks.
Wales- Tracks Floods inside shoulder on a right of centre field break, scores under sticks.
Wales- walkover in the right corner
Italy- Tracks Flood on inside on break down the centre, scores under the sticks
Italy- Offload from Hape just right of posts, scores just right of posts.
Italy- Pick and go in line with upright, scores under sticks
Italy- Tracks down middle as Banahan makes break in 13 channel going left, scores under sticks
Georgia- Tracks Wood on inside on break down middle, scores under sticks
Georgia- Scored in right corner off left hand corner scrum
Romania- Inside ball in midfield off right side lineout, goes over closer to left corner than posts but gets up and runs it round behind sticks.
Romania- Down wing, cuts infield a bit after crossing but touches down equidistant between corner and posts
Romania- Tracks Haskell on midfield break, veers out, scores in left hand corner
Scotland- Dives over in right corner
New Zealand- Tracks Tuilagi left of centre break, scores nearer left touchline that posts but not in corner
Scotland- Launchbury stopped just short just left of posts, Ashton barges over equidistant between posts and left corner.
Argentina- Right corner, overlap from close range ruck
New Zealand- Tracks Brown break down right touchline, inside pass, scores under sticks
New Zealand- Cut out from Youngs, dives over in corner.

I make that 5/20 in the corner (one of which was an in to out swerve so not really a classic wingers try).

I would also like to apologise for the excessive use of bold. No idea why that's happened.



Mod - fixed the bolding for you

First of all - excellent work, thank you.

Secondly, wow I had no idea Ashton's try scoring record was so heavily weighted towards lesser teams. 9/20 against Italy, Georgia, and Romania (and, let's be honest, Scotland weren't vintage at that point in time either). Great player, but that does take some of the sheen off his international record.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 11:21 pm

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 10:52 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:03 pm

Interesting points there. I wonder what proportion of Ashton's tries were wing-speciality efforts near the touchline. I have fond memories of him being effective with well-timed runs in the centre of the field. That leads me to question whether two line-hugging wingers will ever be the norm again.

In particular, your third sentence might apply to much-maligned Malins who, despite the criticism, does score pretty consistently - right place/right time when it matters.

Assuming everyone is fit, who should England's wingers be? I still think Daly and Watson should start with SB challenging the pretenders to prove they are better because, IMO, none of them are - yet.

Australia- inside ball from Palmer, scores about 10 metres in from touch.
Australia- brilliant offload off the deck from Croft, scores 5m to right of posts.
Australia- That try. Down the wing for about half but scored under sticks.
Wales- Tracks Floods inside shoulder on a right of centre field break, scores under sticks.
Wales- walkover in the right corner
Italy- Tracks Flood on inside on break down the centre, scores under the sticks
Italy- Offload from Hape just right of posts, scores just right of posts.
Italy- Pick and go in line with upright, scores under sticks
Italy- Tracks down middle as Banahan makes break in 13 channel going left, scores under sticks
Georgia- Tracks Wood on inside on break down middle, scores under sticks
Georgia- Scored in right corner off left hand corner scrum
Romania- Inside ball in midfield off right side lineout, goes over closer to left corner than posts but gets up and runs it round behind sticks.
Romania- Down wing, cuts infield a bit after crossing but touches down equidistant between corner and posts
Romania- Tracks Haskell on midfield break, veers out, scores in left hand corner
Scotland- Dives over in right corner
New Zealand- Tracks Tuilagi left of centre break, scores nearer left touchline that posts but not in corner
Scotland- Launchbury stopped just short just left of posts, Ashton barges over equidistant between posts and left corner.
Argentina- Right corner, overlap from close range ruck
New Zealand- Tracks Brown break down right touchline, inside pass, scores under sticks
New Zealand- Cut out from Youngs, dives over in corner.

I make that 5/20 in the corner (one of which was an in to out swerve so not really a classic wingers try).

I would also like to apologise for the excessive use of bold. No idea why that's happened.



Mod - fixed the bolding for you

Secondly, wow I had no idea Ashton's try scoring record was so heavily weighted towards lesser teams.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 7:57 am At the time Flood was benched for Farrell I remember being somewhat annoyed as we were swapping a 10 that could do a bit of everything and was in his prime for a youngster with a limited game plan. Pushed Flood off to Toulouse as well.

In regards to the split in scoring I'd have thought any decent winger would be scoring quite a few if given games against Romania etc. Not surprised that makes up a chunk of his tries scored.

16th man wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 1:03 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 7:57 am At the time Flood was benched for Farrell I remember being somewhat annoyed as we were swapping a 10 that could do a bit of everything and was in his prime for a youngster with a limited game plan. Pushed Flood off to Toulouse as well.

In regards to the split in scoring I'd have thought any decent winger would be scoring quite a few if given games against Romania etc. Not surprised that makes up a chunk of his tries scored.

I think for the tries tracking 10's breaks it would also be informative to look who the centres were. I reckon the game plan would have shifted to having Manu taking a lot of the space Ashton may have been looking to track through in the Farrell period.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 8:29 amHappens a lot when you delve into (wingers) scoring records. Nowell has 14 or so tries, 3 v Uruguay, 4 v Italy for example. Then again, I wouldn't say Ashton was a great player; excellent at club level again, ok intl winger.

Puja wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 2:55 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 8:29 amHappens a lot when you delve into (wingers) scoring records. Nowell has 14 or so tries, 3 v Uruguay, 4 v Italy for example. Then again, I wouldn't say Ashton was a great player; excellent at club level again, ok intl winger.

One of the reasons I'm such a huge Jonny May fan - he's the top professional era try-scorer for England, but only 6 of them are against lower level sides (and those are Samoa, Tonga, and Italy who are still pretty good), with 22/32 against Fra/Ire/Wal/SA/NZ/Aus.

Incredible when you think he was dropped after his sixth cap because he hadn't scored a try yet.

Puja

“I know I might not get another chance to coach with England again. But what we decided as a family was that while I might not get that opportunity, if I did go for it now, I definitely would not get the chance to spend the time with my kids from the ages of 12 to 16 and 10 to 14.

“When I spoke to Steve, I told him it was a huge honour to be even considered for the job and I was super excited about it. But having had time to reflect, I felt that if I keep developing as a coach and working hard, I might have another chance in the future. If I don’t, I am fine with that, but I am never going to get the chance again to spend the next World Cup cycle with my kids.”

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:27 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 2:55 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 8:29 amHappens a lot when you delve into (wingers) scoring records. Nowell has 14 or so tries, 3 v Uruguay, 4 v Italy for example. Then again, I wouldn't say Ashton was a great player; excellent at club level again, ok intl winger.

One of the reasons I'm such a huge Jonny May fan - he's the top professional era try-scorer for England, but only 6 of them are against lower level sides (and those are Samoa, Tonga, and Italy who are still pretty good), with 22/32 against Fra/Ire/Wal/SA/NZ/Aus.

Incredible when you think he was dropped after his sixth cap because he hadn't scored a try yet.

Puja

Jonny May definitely gets the most surprising improvement to top class award. (also amazing that he played centre for the u20's)- not sure how he 'avoided' a Lions call when one thinks of those who have had one.

Puja wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:43 pm Peel on why he turned down England: https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://ww ... -saracens/

“I know I might not get another chance to coach with England again. But what we decided as a family was that while I might not get that opportunity, if I did go for it now, I definitely would not get the chance to spend the time with my kids from the ages of 12 to 16 and 10 to 14.

“When I spoke to Steve, I told him it was a huge honour to be even considered for the job and I was super excited about it. But having had time to reflect, I felt that if I keep developing as a coach and working hard, I might have another chance in the future. If I don’t, I am fine with that, but I am never going to get the chance again to spend the next World Cup cycle with my kids.”

Fair enough really.

Puja