Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:44 am
I imagine we’ve debated this one enough that pretty much everyone has already made their minds up one way or the other, but I don’t see that any of that (except for the possibility of Itoje leaving) “should get the RFU to adapt their England selection regulations”.
The central contract situation is obviously the big one, but this article makes out like George, Daly etc have been hard done by in some fashion. If they want to go to France that’s absolutely fine by me. I don’t mean that with any bitterness. They’ve contributed a lot but are 30+ and we’ll need to move on sooner or later.
Sinkler isn’t consistently starting because he hasn’t been playing well. Marchant, Willis and Arundell’s moves are all due to fairly specific reasons. It’s a shame to lose Ludlam, and he’s been underutilised some would say, but he is not a player worth changing policies over.
How many caps has he even got? What would a Giteau-style cap threshold even be to include him?
Agreed on all counts. If anything, Ludlam leaving should mean the RFU double down, for the sake of saving English professional rugby, rather than allow the floodgates to open.
Also, while I would very much prefer Ludlam to stay in England, he's hardly the big name that breaks the policy. He's a good player, but I don't think he's in anyone's first choice England XV.
Puja
You say that but by 1st XV would be;
Genge
Theodore
Brookes
Ribbans
Kpoku
Ludlam
Willis
Simmonds
Robson
Simmonds
Wade
12T
Marchant
Arundell
RICH LANE!!!
"While Northampton were desperate to keep their club captain, Toulon not only offered high wages but a longer-term contract, which was thought to be crucial in Ludlam’s decision."
Taken from the above.
Sounds like a hybrid contract wouldn't have necessarily helped that much as he wanted to security of a longer deal and Saints weren't willing to offer that.
Borthwick needs to be ruthless and cut him adrift for the 6N period now. Send out a message to those England squad players on the fence. Sign for a French club and you're out in the cold (exceptional circumstances aside). Would potentially cost Ludlam £100k in missed match fees for the 6N and additional from the summer.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:10 am
"While Northampton were desperate to keep their club captain, Toulon not only offered high wages but a longer-term contract, which was thought to be crucial in Ludlam’s decision."
Taken from the above.
Sounds like a hybrid contract wouldn't have necessarily helped that much as he wanted to security of a longer deal and Saints weren't willing to offer that.
Borthwick needs to be ruthless and cut him adrift for the 6N period now. Send out a message to those England squad players on the fence. Sign for a French club and you're out in the cold (exceptional circumstances aside). Would potentially cost Ludlam £100k in missed match fees for the 6N and additional from the summer.
I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:10 am
"While Northampton were desperate to keep their club captain, Toulon not only offered high wages but a longer-term contract, which was thought to be crucial in Ludlam’s decision."
Taken from the above.
Sounds like a hybrid contract wouldn't have necessarily helped that much as he wanted to security of a longer deal and Saints weren't willing to offer that.
Borthwick needs to be ruthless and cut him adrift for the 6N period now. Send out a message to those England squad players on the fence. Sign for a French club and you're out in the cold (exceptional circumstances aside). Would potentially cost Ludlam £100k in missed match fees for the 6N and additional from the summer.
I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.
Starting?!?!?!?
We have the biggest player base and the biggest money making stadium in the world but the RFU can’t produce a consistently good national team and seems to lurch from one financial crisis to another.
We had the strongest and highest paying league in the world and instead of expanding, allowing competition etc etc it turned itself into a shrinking cartel.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:23 pmWe had the strongest and highest paying league in the world and instead of expanding, allowing competition etc etc it turned itself into a shrinking cartel.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:10 am
"While Northampton were desperate to keep their club captain, Toulon not only offered high wages but a longer-term contract, which was thought to be crucial in Ludlam’s decision."
Taken from the above.
Sounds like a hybrid contract wouldn't have necessarily helped that much as he wanted to security of a longer deal and Saints weren't willing to offer that.
Borthwick needs to be ruthless and cut him adrift for the 6N period now. Send out a message to those England squad players on the fence. Sign for a French club and you're out in the cold (exceptional circumstances aside). Would potentially cost Ludlam £100k in missed match fees for the 6N and additional from the summer.
I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.
Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.
Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:23 pmWe had the strongest and highest paying league in the world and instead of expanding, allowing competition etc etc it turned itself into a shrinking cartel.
When?
Ok, slight hyperbole to make my point* but the league were serial winners around the 2003 World Cup win - no idea on salaries back then - and had the highest cap in the early to mid teens with some high points, eg 3 semi-finalists in one year.
*my point being that English rugby has been in a mess of one sort or another for years when, along with France, we have the best circumstances in the world.
As has been mentioned above, Ludlam heading for Toulon isn't exactly a disaster with the plethora of top class backrow forwards still available to Scatter Brain.
If only Owen Farrell could be persuaded to go with Ludlam then the future of the England XV would indeed be rosy.
francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:22 pm
As has been mentioned above, Ludlam heading for Toulon isn't exactly a disaster with the plethora of top class backrow forwards still available to Scatter Brain.
If only Owen Farrell could be persuaded to go with Ludlam then the future of the England XV would indeed be rosy.
No, no. Remember England vs France in the 6 nations? That happened because Farrell was missing.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:10 am
"While Northampton were desperate to keep their club captain, Toulon not only offered high wages but a longer-term contract, which was thought to be crucial in Ludlam’s decision."
Taken from the above.
Sounds like a hybrid contract wouldn't have necessarily helped that much as he wanted to security of a longer deal and Saints weren't willing to offer that.
Borthwick needs to be ruthless and cut him adrift for the 6N period now. Send out a message to those England squad players on the fence. Sign for a French club and you're out in the cold (exceptional circumstances aside). Would potentially cost Ludlam £100k in missed match fees for the 6N and additional from the summer.
I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.
Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.
Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.
Agreed. That's the point, though. What is good for Saracens is bad for England! Itoje is far more important than Farrell to the international set-up. That's one example but is it a trend?
Add on the SA influence at Sale and possibly the Welsh core at Exeter. At a time when three clubs have gone, should the RFU be finding a way to support clubs more in developing a dominance of EQP?
francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:22 pm
As has been mentioned above, Ludlam heading for Toulon isn't exactly a disaster with the plethora of top class backrow forwards still available to Scatter Brain.
If only Owen Farrell could be persuaded to go with Ludlam then the future of the England XV would indeed be rosy.
No, no. Remember England vs France in the 6 nations? That happened because Farrell was missing.
I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.
Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.
Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.
Agreed. That's the point, though. What is good for Saracens is bad for England! Itoje is far more important than Farrell to the international set-up. That's one example but is it a trend?
Add on the SA influence at Sale and possibly the Welsh core at Exeter. At a time when three clubs have gone, should the RFU be finding a way to support clubs more in developing a dominance of EQP?
The RFU pay them based on EQP in match day squads and majority fund the academies. What other ways would you suggest? There’s only so much scope for RFU influence given the model in England.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:10 amBorthwick needs to be ruthless and cut him adrift for the 6N period now. Send out a message to those England squad players on the fence. Sign for a French club and you're out in the cold (exceptional circumstances aside). Would potentially cost Ludlam £100k in missed match fees for the 6N and additional from the summer.
Agreed on this - from an on-pitch perspective, he's not vital to the squad and it makes more sense to be looking at developing players who will be available going forwards, and from an off-pitch perspective, it should be made clear the consequences of going abroad so that other players factor that into their contract decisions.
Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.
Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.
Agreed. That's the point, though. What is good for Saracens is bad for England! Itoje is far more important than Farrell to the international set-up. That's one example but is it a trend?
Add on the SA influence at Sale and possibly the Welsh core at Exeter. At a time when three clubs have gone, should the RFU be finding a way to support clubs more in developing a dominance of EQP?
The RFU pay them based on EQP in match day squads and majority fund the academies. What other ways would you suggest? There’s only so much scope for RFU influence given the model in England.
Fair point.
I suppose it seems like neither one thing nor the other. Either leave it to the market completely or regulate fully, perhaps? It just seems odd that so many players of the 230 on duty on any club day are non-EQP when three clubs have gone and players are heading for France. It's as if the clubs and the international administrators have separate agendae which may seem reasonable in the short-term. Long-term though?
twitchy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:27 pm
What a mess we are in.
Well, yes.
Not helped by there being an enormous void where you would have hoped by now that the RFU/PRL would have revealed their plans for elite rugby. we're still waiting?
On the issue of players going abroad, there really isnt an option but to exclude them from international duty. We have to do what we can to keep players here in the Premiership, both for the benefit of that competition and for England having easy access to them.
I know I’m in the minority but I think the policy is a bit short termist (for want of an actual phrase/word). There’s numerous examples of players coming back from France better than when they left and Wilko was certainly more available for England when his body was soaking up the Mediterranean sun than the rain when at Newcastle. I think there is at least a room for compromise to allow players to, eg, go abroad in the first two years of a World Cup cycle. It would allow younger EQP to gain experience in Prem or test games and the money not spent on the England test player could be spent on a test player from another country. This player churn may help drive up interest - as it does in football (American and normal).
My second reason is that the Premiership needs to open itself up to competition as its cartel arrangement - both foreign and domestic - isn’t driving improvement in area, atm.
twitchy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:27 pm
What a mess we are in.
Well, yes.
Not helped by there being an enormous void where you would have hoped by now that the RFU/PRL would have revealed their plans for elite rugby. we're still waiting?
On the issue of players going abroad, there really isnt an option but to exclude them from international duty. We have to do what we can to keep players here in the Premiership, both for the benefit of that competition and for England having easy access to them.
To an extent, it's about defining what is good for English rugby. In terms of our international team, many claim the benefits of playing for the Lions to get experience of playing with team-mates from other countries. Encouraging that but being categorically against selecting players with French clubs does represent a degree of contradiction. Maybe, ease of access to players with French clubs could be better with encouragement of the right contractual clauses.
The fact is that we are winning nothing currently - internationally or in European club competitions. Does keeping players here work? Does not picking France-based players work? How do you measure it?
I'm all for any rule that benefits English rugby but I'm not sure about how things are done at present.
I mean Armitage and Abendanon seemed to improve considerably, and Wilkinson certainly looked freer in his later years, but it’s hard to know what you put that down to.
Players can definitely improve over there but (ignoring the quality of the prem completely) is the lack of access/control worth that gamble?
I can’t say I’ve had the thought recently that England aren’t winning things because of a player being unavailable in France.
I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.
Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.
Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.
Agreed. That's the point, though. What is good for Saracens is bad for England! Itoje is far more important than Farrell to the international set-up. That's one example but is it a trend?
Add on the SA influence at Sale and possibly the Welsh core at Exeter. At a time when three clubs have gone, should the RFU be finding a way to support clubs more in developing a dominance of EQP?
In principle you'd appear to have a point, but in practice it's pretty hard to argue that the Du Preez twins have had a negative impact on English back row options, or that their older brother has been blocking an outstanding candidate at 10 or 13 getting game time. There has been a bit of a revolving door of others but they've generally trended to the higher quality, good to have improving the standard of the league end of the spectrum.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:19 pm
I can’t say I’ve had the thought recently that England aren’t winning things because of a player being unavailable in France.
We can categorically state we’re not winning anything with the status quo.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:19 pm
I can’t say I’ve had the thought recently that England aren’t winning things because of a player being unavailable in France.
We can categorically state we’re not winning anything with the status quo.
Second and third at the last two world cups. Four European cup wins in the last eights years. Three 6N titles in those 8 years.
Pretty solid last two world cup cycles. Can't really say we aren't winning things or placing well.
There's certainly room for improvement but devaluing the Premiership isn't the way to get there. Currently the possibility of international caps and the £20k a time appearance fee keeps some big names in England.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:19 pm
I can’t say I’ve had the thought recently that England aren’t winning things because of a player being unavailable in France.
We can categorically state we’re not winning anything with the status quo.
Yeah but what were we even missing? Kieran Brookes? Zach Henry?
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:19 pm
I can’t say I’ve had the thought recently that England aren’t winning things because of a player being unavailable in France.
We can categorically state we’re not winning anything with the status quo.
Yeah but what were we even missing? Kieran Brookes? Zach Henry?
I’m not arguing that we’re missing anyone under the current rules. I’m arguing that allowing our best players to move abroad for a one or two years to experience a different league and coaches may improve that player for England in the long term - it seemed to work for Marchant - whilst also allowing younger EQP to play more games in the Prem, therefore benefitting England in the even longer term, and/or spending the spare £££ on test players from other nations.
