Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:42 pm
Sounds about right. There's been a few guys for England that have come from nowhere to jump up the pecking order, notably Mitchell.
RugbyRebels
The RugbyRebels Messageboard
http://rugbyrebels.co.uk/
England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Page 6 of 7
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 am
Have been lurking for some time, but finally decided to bite the bullet and sign up. It is threads like this that make this board a treasure-trove... thank you Puja!
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 9:54 am
Welcome to the board - glad I could lure you in!
Thanks everybody for the kind words - they are always very much appreciated and they do very much increase the chances of me doing more of these threads by reassuring me that I'm not boring everyone to tears. See you all for next week's exciting installment!
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 11:50 am
3 all draw with 20 mins ball in play time incoming.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:15 pm
Hey, it's quicker to write, "Once more, we fail to scrum within the minute," than it is to try and describe minute where there's fluid play and 6-7 phases.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 3:20 pm
Be thankful you're not Irish then
Some sublime play this 6N. Not looking forward to that match, other than the quality of rugby that may be offered up (or at least half of it!)Enjoyed reading your Italy mbm after this one. It actually makes for very insightful / though-provoking content reading it *after* the game against Wales. Puts it more into context in terms of what we're trying to achieve and build towards. I still worry, though, that this Scotland game is slightly out of reach for where we are, right now. If it were at HQ, maybe...
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 12:22 am
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:15 am
Yeah, it was said that he was only on a very short term contract before a job in NZ when he signed, but I had half a hope that he might've loved Stoic Backslapping's environment so much that he signed on for a bit more. Hopefully our coaching staff have learned as much about his methods as the players have.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:40 am
Ouch! That really is disappointing. Yes, still plenty to work on but his short time working with them was very noticeable.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:02 am
Maybe there's a lesson in here somewhere. Hire a top level, experienced coach and get top level coaching. Worked with Strawbridge and working (to a degree, but needs time) with F Jones. A corollary of that is hire inexperienced coaches and get them learning on the job, with players getting worse the longer they're in the squad...
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:17 am
There is clearly a strong argument to send the players back to their clubs during the week off
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:40 am
Or the players aren't as good as we think and the Prem as a standard is not as close to International as we'd like.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:02 amMaybe there's a lesson in here somewhere. Hire a top level, experienced coach and get top level coaching. Worked with Strawbridge and working (to a degree, but needs time) with F Jones. A corollary of that is hire inexperienced coaches and get them learning on the job, with players getting worse the longer they're in the squad...
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am
I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:48 pm
With structure and a team plan, you can turn many groups of players into an OKish team. But that level is just a smidge higher than Wales are at.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
And that's where we are.
Not good enough.
You look at the best teams in world rugby, and they've either had successful appointments time after time, or have a philosophy.
We have neither.
And we've not made a good appointment since...well, since SCW, really. Which is embarrassing. A load of forwards.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:37 pm
Ultimately, it's on the RFU. With the benefit of hindsight, it has been for the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can have a revolution there - unless we stop going to Twickenham in sufficient numbers.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:00 pm
Its also a function of the RFU not having control over the pro game. PRL just don't care about the national side other than as a subsidy. The RFU havent addressed this properly, and they haven't really appointed a very good coach apart from Eddie only works well for three years Jones.
If you were heading up the RFU and wanted to make a difference sustainably.....you wouldn't start from here.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:01 pm
Jones was a good appointment, if they'd have stuck to the original plan to replace after 2019 RWC and him to have mentored a new head coach.Stom wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:48 pmWith structure and a team plan, you can turn many groups of players into an OKish team. But that level is just a smidge higher than Wales are at.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
And that's where we are.
Not good enough.
You look at the best teams in world rugby, and they've either had successful appointments time after time, or have a philosophy.
We have neither.
And we've not made a good appointment since...well, since SCW, really. Which is embarrassing. A load of forwards.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:05 pm
The sum of the parts is the major issue in the short term. I think Gatland would get much better performances out of our squad, for example.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:20 pm
Nope. Gatland's days were about a decade ago. His time back in NZ was a farce and his results back with Wales pretty poor.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:05 pmThe sum of the parts is the major issue in the short term. I think Gatland would get much better performances out of our squad, for example.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:59 pm
Wash your mouth out!Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:05 pmThe sum of the parts is the major issue in the short term. I think Gatland would get much better performances out of our squad, for example.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:21 pm
I agree.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:05 pmThe sum of the parts is the major issue in the short term. I think Gatland would get much better performances out of our squad, for example.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
IMO, Gatland is nothing special but he would have achieved better performances from the team unit in the short term. Of course, the alternative is to have faith in SB's middle or long term development programme. Perhaps there is a grand plan . . . . Now, where have we heard that before?
Round we go in circles again. How good/bad are our players? What is par? Are we really 4th best in the NH - by the skin of our teeth ahead of Wales and Italy?
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:53 pm
Yes. Because 1-3 haven't been fucking about for the last 3+ years.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:21 pmAre we really 4th best in the NH - by the skin of our teeth ahead of Wales and Italy?Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:05 pmThe sum of the parts is the major issue in the short term. I think Gatland would get much better performances out of our squad, for example.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:54 pm
we will have to disagree.FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:20 pmNope. Gatland's days were about a decade ago. His time back in NZ was a farce and his results back with Wales pretty poor.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:05 pmThe sum of the parts is the major issue in the short term. I think Gatland would get much better performances out of our squad, for example.pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:55 am I think, with the exception of Leinster, that is the case for all teams. And surely it affects Scotland as much as us, given where many of their players play?
Your point is accurate that - across multiple coaches - we see players who excel in their clubs turn into "meh" players for England. So that can't just be on Stepping Backwards... but why does that happen to us so much more than for many other national teams? Take Wales as probably the clearest counterpoint: their players are raw and have shown - in many cases - relatively little when it comes to club form and they're literally last cabs at the rank, but Gatland seems to have made them more than the sum of their parts.
Given the more limited time int'l coaching teams get with players, having experience of what works vs doesn't in terms of getting the right players, with the right game plan in the right frame of mind... must be beneficial.
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 10:09 pm
Would this be a good time to bring up Steward at 12
Re: England vs Wales - minute-by-minute
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 10:16 pm
