Team for Italy

[Oakboy]

Delighted for Dingwall. Disappointed for Marcus who didnt do a lot wrong last time out. Difficult to see how Daly offers more of an attacking threat.
Not convinced Hill is the best option to cover lock but pleased hes in the 23.
JVP back is a good thing.

Dingwall has always struck me as a good, sound all-round midfielder who can do a bit of everything, has some rugby intelligence/organization skills and plays to a high level of consistency. He is not particularly fast or powerful or inventive, and I can't remember his ever having lit up a game with personal brilliance. I am sure he will not let the side down but I would not expect too much. I suspect SB sees him as a reliable midfield presence, there to keep things ticking over and safe and to dovetail with his Saint's mates. Good luck to him. The Italian centres will be a good test.

Spot on. I'd have picked Dingwall but largely on a sink or swim basis because we have so few alternatives.

[Oakboy]

I think the English written rugby press is appalling. England have just won two in a row against two good teams. They are a team who spent a year losing close games and now they are winning them. The kids who are playing are good and have tons of heart. They stay in the fight and now they have started winning. They are slowly building.

I have waited years for an England team to have some sense of identity and genuine heart. I like this lot. And I like a lot of what SB's regime is doing. We are far from perfect. But let the kids play.

Maybe it's my age but I find the press' bagging of young men who are giving everything really distasteful.

One thing which I've noticed in the m-b-m is that we looked scared of Scotland at times in how we played and gave them way too much respect. The penalty where we go 13-10 up comes after we've spent a period of dominance, they've just had to give up three penalties in the space of one attack to stop us crossing the line, they're on a final warning for a yellow from the ref, both our scrum and our lineout maul have been on top and we've got a choice between a 5 metre lineout or a tap-penalty/scrum 5m out and underneath the posts. Yet we opted very quickly to kick for goal.

I think you raise a good point that it's easy to underestimate how much psychological damage a young team can take from having winning positions slip out of their hands for seven non-Japan games in a row. Beating France has gone some way to repairing it, but then we had the luxury of being unfavoured and given just a puncher's chance. We flinched when Scotland went ahead in the first half, remembering how they'd won the last four.

Very easy to say that they should just "be stronger" and "do better" but getting these wins and getting that belief in their hearts is how the strength builds.

Puja

Confidence is fickle. In a developing side absolute faith in the coaches and the playing style is the first requisite - the core fall-back mental stabiliser. Borthwick has been too 'play not to get stuffed' so far. That may be the best way to move on to a full 'play to win' style. Time will tell. I doubt that it will work until a quality attack coach is brought in.

At present, Borthwick is NOT getting tge best out of players individually and collectively. The best-case scenario is that he knows it and is moving towards it. The players need to be trusted to play rugby.

[Charlatan]

Agree with the general puzzlement over some of the key selection calls, particularly considering it’s against Italy at home - tho I will say I’ve had a mild premonition since the start of the tournament we are going to contrive to lose this game…

Why ditch Marcus at 15 now? And for Daly who hasn’t been a great international full back for most of his career. Has he really shown that much off the bench to justify it?
George starting in his 100th cap is lovely and all, and yes he really has shown good form but it seemed to be working so well him coming off the bench? I’d also prefer Dan on the bench if you are going to start George.
Resting T Curry seemed a no brainer for this game - in an area where we do have plenty of strength too.
Pleased to see Dingwall get a start.
Randall has been pretty woeful and JvP deserves the call up.
6:2 bench not the end of the world but does it show a further lack of ambition in how we want to play?

I do also agree that the team mindset going into the Scotland game was one of them feeling very trepidatious - they talked about this on a podcast I was listening to (Rugby Union Weekly I think) in reference to Genge’s comments as well. The England team felt like real underdogs going into the game and probably showed Scotland too much respect based on past performances rather than the reality of what was actually happening on the pitch.

[Banquo]

I think the English written rugby press is appalling. England have just won two in a row against two good teams. They are a team who spent a year losing close games and now they are winning them. The kids who are playing are good and have tons of heart. They stay in the fight and now they have started winning. They are slowly building.

I have waited years for an England team to have some sense of identity and genuine heart. I like this lot. And I like a lot of what SB's regime is doing. We are far from perfect. But let the kids play.

Maybe it's my age but I find the press' bagging of young men who are giving everything really distasteful.

One thing which I've noticed in the m-b-m is that we looked scared of Scotland at times in how we played and gave them way too much respect. The penalty where we go 13-10 up comes after we've spent a period of dominance, they've just had to give up three penalties in the space of one attack to stop us crossing the line, they're on a final warning for a yellow from the ref, both our scrum and our lineout maul have been on top and we've got a choice between a 5 metre lineout or a tap-penalty/scrum 5m out and underneath the posts. Yet we opted very quickly to kick for goal.

I think you raise a good point that it's easy to underestimate how much psychological damage a young team can take from having winning positions slip out of their hands for seven non-Japan games in a row. Beating France has gone some way to repairing it, but then we had the luxury of being unfavoured and given just a puncher's chance. We flinched when Scotland went ahead in the first half, remembering how they'd won the last four.

Very easy to say that they should just "be stronger" and "do better" but getting these wins and getting that belief in their hearts is how the strength builds.

Puja

quick q....how is it a 'young' team? maybe a newish team (and the bench has only one player over 30 ), but hardly young or even inexperienced internationally. Relative to Ireland maybe

[Banquo]

Delighted for Dingwall. Disappointed for Marcus who didnt do a lot wrong last time out. Difficult to see how Daly offers more of an attacking threat.
Not convinced Hill is the best option to cover lock but pleased hes in the 23.
JVP back is a good thing.

Dingwall has always struck me as a good, sound all-round midfielder who can do a bit of everything, has some rugby intelligence/organization skills and plays to a high level of consistency. He is not particularly fast or powerful or inventive, and I can't remember his ever having lit up a game with personal brilliance. I am sure he will not let the side down but I would not expect too much. I suspect SB sees him as a reliable midfield presence, there to keep things ticking over and safe and to dovetail with his Saint's mates. Good luck to him. The Italian centres will be a good test.

exactly this, but at least he has the right positional skills and experience for a 12.

[p/d]

Firstly I think the players should man up and stop whinging about press/ex players. This isn’t something new, so don’t get precious.

I’m all for tinkering with a side looking for those few improvements and building depth, but the risk now is we are creating uncertainty in key positions.

Being somewhat old school I would have stuck with Steward for the tournament, let the back 3 develop as a unit and left both Smith’s vying for 10.

As for 12. Jeez. Is Dingers in so Slade can have a rest or have the coaches finally seen Slade as not quite the player he once was. It is almost as if Dingers is winning his first cap again. Not a good place to be this far into their tenure.

[Stom]

Firstly I think the players should man up and stop whinging about press/ex players. This isn’t something new, so don’t get precious.

I’m all for tinkering with a side looking for those few improvements and building depth, but the risk now is we are creating uncertainty in key positions.

Being somewhat old school I would have stuck with Steward for the tournament, let the back 3 develop as a unit and left both Smith’s vying for 10.

As for 12. Jeez. Is Dingers in so Slade can have a rest or have the coaches finally seen Slade as not quite the player he once was. It is almost as if Dingers is winning his first cap again. Not a good place to be this far into their tenure.

And it's also valid, this time...

[FKAS]

Just a thought on Daly at 15. Is Borthwick looking to keep a big left boot in the side. All three 10s in the squad can kick well from hand but don't have the top end range of the likes of Lowe, Russell etc. Maybe concerned about being pinned back in a kicking duel so wanted the big boot option.

Not something I'd want front of our mind personally but could explain Daly's inclusion between that and his experience.

[Oakboy]

Only Italy??? Coming off a hiding from France, their confidence could be low (even if there is a competitive team developing). We have won two tight matches and IF there is real belief our confidence should be high.

What excuses can possibly be lined up for NOT getting a win against them with tries and style?

[p/d]

Just a thought on Daly at 15. Is Borthwick looking to keep a big left boot in the side. All three 10s in the squad can kick well from hand but don't have the top end range of the likes of Lowe, Russell etc. Maybe concerned about being pinned back in a kicking duel so wanted the big boot option.

Not something I'd want front of our mind personally but could explain Daly's inclusion between that and his experience.

With a points difference if -3 I would hope we have selected to score numerous tries and not worry ourselves about being pinned back in a kicking duel.

[FKAS]

Just a thought on Daly at 15. Is Borthwick looking to keep a big left boot in the side. All three 10s in the squad can kick well from hand but don't have the top end range of the likes of Lowe, Russell etc. Maybe concerned about being pinned back in a kicking duel so wanted the big boot option.

Not something I'd want front of our mind personally but could explain Daly's inclusion between that and his experience.

With a points difference if -3 I would hope we have selected to score numerous tries and not worry ourselves about being pinned back in a kicking duel.

Hard to score tries if you're pinned back in your own half.

[Oakboy]

Just a thought on Daly at 15. Is Borthwick looking to keep a big left boot in the side. All three 10s in the squad can kick well from hand but don't have the top end range of the likes of Lowe, Russell etc. Maybe concerned about being pinned back in a kicking duel so wanted the big boot option.

Not something I'd want front of our mind personally but could explain Daly's inclusion between that and his experience.

With a points difference if -3 I would hope we have selected to score numerous tries and not worry ourselves about being pinned back in a kicking duel.

Hard to score tries if you're pinned back in your own half.

Do you not think that our tactics of JUST kicking it up in the air make it easy for teams to do that?

[p/d]

With a points difference if -3 I would hope we have selected to score numerous tries and not worry ourselves about being pinned back in a kicking duel.

Hard to score tries if you're pinned back in your own half.

Do you not think that our tactics of JUST kicking it up in the air make it easy for teams to do that?

Fear of losing Dors. Hopefully Dingwall possesses no kicking game whatsoever

[FKAS]

With a points difference if -3 I would hope we have selected to score numerous tries and not worry ourselves about being pinned back in a kicking duel.

Hard to score tries if you're pinned back in your own half.

Do you not think that our tactics of JUST kicking it up in the air make it easy for teams to do that?

I don't back out ability to play out from our own half without dropping the ball or giving away dumb penalties that concede points. Neither does Borthwick based on his tactics.

It's also about options and Italy do like to kick and try not to play in their own half. I suspect Borthwick likes having that option available to him.

Personally I'd have kept Marcus at 15 and gone to a 5:3 bench split if there wasn't a viable lock available but there you go.

[p/d]

France going 7:1

Penaud back off naughty step

[Banquo]

Marcus is more likely to become a (very) good FB though

Is he? Not unless he plays there for Quins/club imo

[Banquo]

Marcus is more likely to become a (very) good FB though

Is he? Not unless he plays there for Quins/club imo. Daly is a good club 15, excellent wing its true.

[Banquo]

Hard to score tries if you're pinned back in your own half.

Do you not think that our tactics of JUST kicking it up in the air make it easy for teams to do that?

Fear of losing Dors. Hopefully Dingwall possesses no kicking game whatsoever

He's got a good line in chips and grubbers unfortunately...

[Banquo]

Firstly I think the players should man up and stop whinging about press/ex players. This isn’t something new, so don’t get precious.

I’m all for tinkering with a side looking for those few improvements and building depth, but the risk now is we are creating uncertainty in key positions.

Being somewhat old school I would have stuck with Steward for the tournament, let the back 3 develop as a unit and left both Smith’s vying for 10.

As for 12. Jeez. Is Dingers in so Slade can have a rest or have the coaches finally seen Slade as not quite the player he once was. It is almost as if Dingers is winning his first cap again. Not a good place to be this far into their tenure.

this

[Mr Mwenda]

Agree with the general puzzlement over some of the key selection calls, particularly considering it’s against Italy at home - tho I will say I’ve had a mild premonition since the start of the tournament we are going to contrive to lose this game…

Italy will beat England one day. Fans need to be ready for it. They've been robbed a few times and I think they are acutely aware that it is just England and nz's scalps they lack so I think they often try things v England. However, the fact that it is HQ calms me somewhat. If it were Rome this year I'd expect to see them targeting this game.

[Banquo]

Agree with the general puzzlement over some of the key selection calls, particularly considering it’s against Italy at home - tho I will say I’ve had a mild premonition since the start of the tournament we are going to contrive to lose this game…

Italy will beat England one day. Fans need to be ready for it. They've been robbed a few times and I think they are acutely aware that it is just England and nz's scalps they lack so I think they often try things v England. However, the fact that it is HQ calms me somewhat. If it were Rome this year I'd expect to see them targeting this game.

Agreed, they are a handy team if you give them any space or momentum. Centres are quality, and in the side overall handling and seeing space are top notch. However, they can be ripped open too.

[Which Tyler]

Hopefully Dingwall possesses no kicking game whatsoever

Lawrence possesses no kicking game whatsoever - it hasn't stopped him from kicking the ball though

Marcus is more likely to become a (very) good FB though

Is he? Not unless he plays there for Quins/club imo

"more likely" not "is likely"
Given that (IMO) the chances of Daly becoming a (very) good FB are precisely 0, any young back has a better chance

[Banquo]

Hopefully Dingwall possesses no kicking game whatsoever

Lawrence possesses no kicking game whatsoever - it hasn't stopped him fro kicking the ball though

[Banquo]

Hopefully Dingwall possesses no kicking game whatsoever

Lawrence possesses no kicking game whatsoever - it hasn't stopped him fro kicking the ball though

Marcus is more likely to become a (very) good FB though

Is he? Not unless he plays there for Quins/club imo

"more likely" not "is likely"
Given that (IMO) the chances of Daly becoming a (very) good FB are precisely 0, anyone has a better chance

Think you do Daly a disservice, but I get your semantic point

[p/d]

Hopefully Dingwall possesses no kicking game whatsoever

Lawrence possesses no kicking game whatsoever - it hasn't stopped him fro kicking the ball though

Point well made WT.