RugbyRebels

Peat wrote: The real biggest difference comes if Jones keeps to his promise to rest the Lions players and keep giving the new boys a lash. Two windows to get up to the level and build confidence could be huge.

Yes if that happens it's not hard to see a scenario where players will look back and see participation in the Lions tour as having been a block to their international careers. For example, Launchbury on a run of 5 games with England might take a bit of shifting by any of the other 2/3 who go to NZ, especially if they mainly sit on the bench. Then, there could be Joseph v Daly; Youngs v Care or Robson; Farrell v Ford even. Maybe, Lozowski or Slade after a 5 game run could be different prospects too. 3rd choice hooker/prop in NZ or 1st choice in Argentina and the AIs? etc.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:, he got more out Hughes than many predicted

say what now??

I thought that would get a nibble or two.

TheNomad wrote:How about this for an 18 year old (from premiership rugby website), re: Ben Curry:

"The 18-year-old flanker forced six turnovers during the match, which was not just the most of the weekend, but the highest from any player in an Aviva Premiership match since February 2015.

In fact, the only player to have ever made more since OPTA started recording data is David Seymour, who made seven for the Sharks against Bath Rugby in December 2011."

Takes a bit of believing but very special if correct!

Oakboy wrote:

TheNomad wrote:How about this for an 18 year old (from premiership rugby website), re: Ben Curry:

"The 18-year-old flanker forced six turnovers during the match, which was not just the most of the weekend, but the highest from any player in an Aviva Premiership match since February 2015.

In fact, the only player to have ever made more since OPTA started recording data is David Seymour, who made seven for the Sharks against Bath Rugby in December 2011."

Takes a bit of believing but very special if correct!

That Seymour is the record holder shows it's not a guarantee of greatness, other than in KK67's eyes. Pretty good work from an 18 year old, though.

TheNomad wrote:How about this for an 18 year old (from premiership rugby website), re: Ben Curry:

"The 18-year-old flanker forced six turnovers during the match, which was not just the most of the weekend, but the highest from any player in an Aviva Premiership match since February 2015.

In fact, the only player to have ever made more since OPTA started recording data is David Seymour, who made seven for the Sharks against Bath Rugby in December 2011."

An english qualified player that wins turnovers?

TheNomad wrote:How about this for an 18 year old (from premiership rugby website), re: Ben Curry:

"The 18-year-old flanker forced six turnovers during the match, which was not just the most of the weekend, but the highest from any player in an Aviva Premiership match since February 2015.

In fact, the only player to have ever made more since OPTA started recording data is David Seymour, who made seven for the Sharks against Bath Rugby in December 2011."

I still say him and his brother need to go to Argentina. Too early for them as regular full internationals, but they need to be in the environment and groomed for higher honours asap.

Puja

Oakboy wrote:

Peat wrote: The real biggest difference comes if Jones keeps to his promise to rest the Lions players and keep giving the new boys a lash. Two windows to get up to the level and build confidence could be huge.

Yes if that happens it's not hard to see a scenario where players will look back and see participation in the Lions tour as having been a block to their international careers. For example, Launchbury on a run of 5 games with England might take a bit of shifting by any of the other 2/3 who go to NZ, especially if they mainly sit on the bench. Then, there could be Joseph v Daly; Youngs v Care or Robson; Farrell v Ford even. Maybe, Lozowski or Slade after a 5 game run could be different prospects too. 3rd choice hooker/prop in NZ or 1st choice in Argentina and the AIs? etc.

It could happen but

a) I don't think its that likely in most cases, as ultimately talent will win and the current pecking order seems pretty accurate for the most part
b) Injury will probably give the Lions a chance to return even if things do end up that way at some point in 2018 anyway
c) If it does happen this way, it can only be a good thing for England, as it means our depth pool will be awesome

Anyone going out to NZ will have a huge wealth of rugby knowledge to draw upon and the biggest platform in the world on which to shine. Even the midweekers will be hugely in the spotlight and will be playing a very good level of opposition in trying circumstances at very high tempo. If they come back from a full tour and other players are outshining them, then it will probably be because the other players have more talent and more hunger, even allowing for my doubts about Gatland's sanity.

Peat wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Peat wrote: The real biggest difference comes if Jones keeps to his promise to rest the Lions players and keep giving the new boys a lash. Two windows to get up to the level and build confidence could be huge.

Yes if that happens it's not hard to see a scenario where players will look back and see participation in the Lions tour as having been a block to their international careers. For example, Launchbury on a run of 5 games with England might take a bit of shifting by any of the other 2/3 who go to NZ, especially if they mainly sit on the bench. Then, there could be Joseph v Daly; Youngs v Care or Robson; Farrell v Ford even. Maybe, Lozowski or Slade after a 5 game run could be different prospects too. 3rd choice hooker/prop in NZ or 1st choice in Argentina and the AIs? etc.

It could happen but

a) I don't think its that likely in most cases, as ultimately talent will win and the current pecking order seems pretty accurate for the most part
b) Injury will probably give the Lions a chance to return even if things do end up that way at some point in 2018 anyway
c) If it does happen this way, it can only be a good thing for England, as it means our depth pool will be awesome

Anyone going out to NZ will have a huge wealth of rugby knowledge to draw upon and the biggest platform in the world on which to shine. Even the midweekers will be hugely in the spotlight and will be playing a very good level of opposition in trying circumstances at very high tempo. If they come back from a full tour and other players are outshining them, then it will probably be because the other players have more talent and more hunger, even allowing for my doubts about Gatland's sanity.

All points well made. I won't extend the debate beyond saying that I'm more and more convinced that time IN a team environment (i.e. THEIR team - in this case, England) is far more valuable to a player's development than any time OUT of it, no matter what other influences may pertain. In particular, time under Gatland and his methods will be very unlikely to improve anybody whose main ambition is to make progress under Jones and his methods.

If the other three countries involved had players significantly better than ours and if the coaching was better (instead of worse) I might see more benefit. All that is left, IMO, is the standard of the opposition. Even that example/influence might offer little by way of instructional progress when the games will be stunted by Gatland's approach.

Peat wrote:
Anyone going out to NZ will have a huge wealth of rugby knowledge

I'd agree for our junior players but not for our senior players. They won't learn much from the likes of AWJ etc etc and have a coaching team of Gatland, their current forwards coach, the previous forward coach and their previous coach of whatever he told Lancaster he was coaching. Luckily, I think most of our tourists, Cole, Youngs and possibly Hartley aside, will be youngsters.

There are reports this evening that Jamie Roberts will be named in the squad. Dont think he has been good enough to play for Wales for quite a while yet alone the Lions.

If Davies and especially Roberts go over Joseph, it tells you everything you need to know about Gatland's approach and bias

skidger wrote:There are reports this evening that Jamie Roberts will be named in the squad. Dont think he has been good enough to play for Wales for quite a while yet alone the Lions.

BOD seems to think he'll go.

Mellsblue wrote:

skidger wrote:There are reports this evening that Jamie Roberts will be named in the squad. Dont think he has been good enough to play for Wales for quite a while yet alone the Lions.

BOD seems to think he'll go.

Goodness me. Just seemed to hit the wall a year or so ago with Wales and looks a shadow of the player he was around 2009.

TheNomad wrote:If Davies and especially Roberts go over Joseph, it tells you everything you need to know about Gatland's approach and bias

I do rate Davies in general and can see why a coach would pick a favourite even when not in the best of form. But Roberts was done as an international over a year ago. This must be how the Welsh felt in 2005. Walesonline has done their squad and they only pick 9 Welsh players yet it seems Gatland may be taking quite a few.

Davies is nearly as done as Roberts personally. But, yeah, I can just about get Davies going, but Roberts might be time to simply not tune in. And I love the Lions. I'm watching a program about beetles throwing each other from trees and I reckon those beetles would be a better bet than Roberts by now.

Mells/Oakboy - Fair points too, probably best to let it rest there.

Slightly worried that we're not going to get as lucky as the likes of Launch and JJ being excused the jamboree pasting, this could all easily be nonsense in the press

The Independent reporting that Shane Williams could be a surprise call up after his mtach winning try at the weekend

p/d wrote:The Independent reporting that Shane Williams could be a surprise call up after his mtach winning try at the weekend

Nonsense. Too fast and skillful to be under consideration.

skidger wrote:

p/d wrote:The Independent reporting that Shane Williams could be a surprise call up after his mtach winning try at the weekend

Nonsense. Too fast and skillful to be under consideration.

But just the attributes needed to tidy up Best's wayward arrows

p/d wrote:

skidger wrote:

p/d wrote:The Independent reporting that Shane Williams could be a surprise call up after his mtach winning try at the weekend

Nonsense. Too fast and skillful to be under consideration.

But just the attributes needed to tidy up Best's wayward arrows

You'll have to do better than that. If you want a WUM involving a retired Welshie I'd go with Effion Lewis-Roberts. He ticks all the boxes, big, past his best and called Roberts.

Everywhere reporting that Hartley will not be selected, with George making the plane.

There's always at least one laughably bad selection for these trips and Roberts just might be the one.

I've read Nowell and Roberts in pfft. JJ being out is just nutso.

Banquo wrote:I've read Nowell and Roberts in pfft. JJ being out is just nutso.

Seen one with Nowell and Earls in. Talk about being spoiled.

Don't know if you guys are watching the La Rochelle Gloucester game but its worth it. La Rochelle possibly the unconditioned, fat set of forwards I've ever seen but they are obviously making it work in the Top 14.