New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Puja]

Obviously we don't want more injuries, but that doesn't seem too concerning in terms of depth compared to the front 5, centre, halfback?

IFW is obviously a big loss but we've got a good handful of wingers in form. I'd be happy to see more of Sleightholme, Roebuck or Murley. Is OHC's England career done?

Agreed - when we're discussing being *forced* to select Murley, I think we're okay. Just so long as we actually do select those wingers, rather than going back to Daly again.

I can't help but think Carpenter is solid but not an international - the Lewis Ludlow of fullbacks - but maybe that's unfair.

Very much agreed. Another Sam James - very good Prem player, but never in danger of troubling the international scene.

Puja

[FKAS]

Obviously we don't want more injuries, but that doesn't seem too concerning in terms of depth compared to the front 5, centre, halfback?

Centre is frighteningly short of depth.

Tight five isn't too bad, we've got multiple options for each position. We might need to bring a player or two through to lower the average age but there are at least options we caps we can go to.

LH - Genge, Baxter, Rodd, Obano
HK - George, LCD, Dan, Oghre, Langdon, Blake
TH - Stuart, Heyes, Davison, Cole, AOF
Lock - Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Hill, Coles

As long as Chessum does indeed return as rumoured this weekend. Shame Fasogbon is injured.

Could be a lot worse though.

[Mikey Brown]

Have you heard of this guy Seb Atkinson? He's farking brilliant.

[Mikey Brown]

Obviously we don't want more injuries, but that doesn't seem too concerning in terms of depth compared to the front 5, centre, halfback?

IFW is obviously a big loss but we've got a good handful of wingers in form. I'd be happy to see more of Sleightholme, Roebuck or Murley. Is OHC's England career done?

Agreed - when we're discussing being *forced* to select Murley, I think we're okay. Just so long as we actually do select those wingers, rather than going back to Daly again.

I can't help but think Carpenter is solid but not an international - the Lewis Ludlow of fullbacks - but maybe that's unfair.

Very much agreed. Another Sam James - very good Prem player, but never in danger of troubling the international scene.

Puja

On the subject of Daly. Is he remotely in the frame as a 15? He can do a lot more of what Furbank does than Steward, and actually plays at 15 every week.

It's been weird seeing him removed from the wing when he was world class there, eventually learning to play fullback at club level, probably losing a yard or two of pace, and then seeing Borthwick try to rewind time and stick him back on the wing again 5 years too late.

I feel like England should probably move past him anyway, but whether it's his boot or his experience there was something Borthwick didn't want to let go of.

[Puja]

Have you heard of this guy Seb Atkinson? He's farking brilliant.

Mikey Brown going from door to door, asking people if they've heard the good news...

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Have you got 5 minutes? The ghost of our Lord Will Greenwood has risen.

[Banquo]

Obviously we don't want more injuries, but that doesn't seem too concerning in terms of depth compared to the front 5, centre, halfback?

IFW is obviously a big loss but we've got a good handful of wingers in form. I'd be happy to see more of Sleightholme, Roebuck or Murley. Is OHC's England career done?

Agreed - when we're discussing being *forced* to select Murley, I think we're okay. Just so long as we actually do select those wingers, rather than going back to Daly again.

I can't help but think Carpenter is solid but not an international - the Lewis Ludlow of fullbacks - but maybe that's unfair.

Very much agreed. Another Sam James - very good Prem player, but never in danger of troubling the international scene.

Puja

On the subject of Daly. Is he remotely in the frame as a 15? He can do a lot more of what Furbank does than Steward, and actually plays at 15 every week.

It's been weird seeing him removed from the wing when he was world class there, eventually learning to play fullback at club level, probably losing a yard or two of pace, and then seeing Borthwick try to rewind time and stick him back on the wing again 5 years too late.

I feel like England should probably move past him anyway, but whether it's his boot or his experience there was something Borthwick didn't want to let go of.

In fairness, iirc Daly was originally a 13, converted to 15 and then Eddie stuck him on the wing. So suspect he'd played a lot more at 15 than wing prior to Eddie moving him, if you get my drift.

[Mikey Brown]

True, he had played more at 15 before he played wing, but I'm not sure what point you're making?

He looked far better on the wing than he ever did at centre/fullback. Wouldn't have been close to that Lions tour in those positions.

He looks a much more competent 15 now and is probably the closest to Furbank in having the range of running, passing and kicking skills.

[Puja]

True, he had played more at 15 before he played wing, but I'm not sure what point you're making?

He looked far better on the wing than he ever did at centre/fullback. Wouldn't have been close to that Lions tour in those positions.

He looks a much more competent 15 now and is probably the closest to Furbank in having the range of running, passing and kicking skills.

My opinion on MSmith's best position for England being 15 has been well-established on another thread, so I'm not going to go through it again here, but I do want to say that any full-back skill that Daly has, MSmith has in spades. Daly is certainly the same category as Furbank, but it's a huge drop-off in quality and I'm hoping he's not an option we're planning on using.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Also true. I should have specified that he is the alternative to Furbank who actually plays there every week, but I don't know if he is even an option in Borthwick's mind.

Like you, I don't actually see many areas I'd expect Smith to fall short of what Furbank/Daly offer as fullbacks. It's hard to call what is the best option in the medium-term. Ford is a great option in theory but he seems to be (semi) injured so often these days. If we're committing to Marcus at fullback that is really heaping the pressure on Finn at 10.

[Puja]

Also true. I should have specified that he is the alternative to Furbank who actually plays there every week, but I don't know if he is even an option in Borthwick's mind.

Like you, I don't actually see many areas I'd expect Smith to fall short of what Furbank/Daly offer as fullbacks. It's hard to call what is the best option in the medium-term. Ford is a great option in theory but he seems to be (semi) injured so often these days. If we're committing to Marcus at fullback that is really heaping the pressure on Finn at 10.

I think it's almost an ideal time to bring in Finn though (last year would've been better, mind). He'll be alongside Mitchell and potentially also joined by Freeman, Sleightholme, and Dingwall in the XV (in descending order of likelihood). If we want to develop him, now is the time and he's not going to get a more familiar environment.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I definitely think he should be in the mix for starting 10. I just wonder wonder what it would actually look like to commit to Marcus at 15 for England, particularly if Ford becomes unavailable again. I don't suppose he'll ever stop being used at 10 by Quins though and there is some manageable way to keep him up to speed in both positions for England, but I get the reservations about repeating the Farrell-at-12 saga.

[Banquo]

True, he had played more at 15 before he played wing, but I'm not sure what point you're making?

He looked far better on the wing than he ever did at centre/fullback. Wouldn't have been close to that Lions tour in those positions.

He looks a much more competent 15 now and is probably the closest to Furbank in having the range of running, passing and kicking skills.

It was the implication that wing was ever his club position, so a bit pedantic I suppose; he'd played a lot at 15 though before being switched there.

I agree he was a far better intl wing than anywhere else as I said zillions of times when he was poor at 15 without the ball.

[Banquo]

True, he had played more at 15 before he played wing, but I'm not sure what point you're making?

He looked far better on the wing than he ever did at centre/fullback. Wouldn't have been close to that Lions tour in those positions.

He looks a much more competent 15 now and is probably the closest to Furbank in having the range of running, passing and kicking skills.

but I do want to say that any full-back skill that Daly has, MSmith has in spades. Daly is certainly the same category as Furbank, but it's a huge drop-off in quality and I'm hoping he's not an option we're planning on using.

Puja

I'd disagree with both those statements. Daly is better positionally, I reckon has a bigger boot, better at hitting a line in attack in the wide channels, and doesn't represent a HUGE drop off in quality (albeit he's lost a yard) v either Smith at 15 or Furbank. They all have different strengths, and Smith is a 10 all day for me.

I'd want Smith to be starting at 15 in some European games before I'd ever start him at 15 for England against a good test team. We have no idea what he's like early in a game, when good kickers will move him about, test him from 1st phase; further, how effective is he at hitting the line outside 13. Full back remains a pretty specialist position imo.

[Puja]

True, he had played more at 15 before he played wing, but I'm not sure what point you're making?

He looked far better on the wing than he ever did at centre/fullback. Wouldn't have been close to that Lions tour in those positions.

He looks a much more competent 15 now and is probably the closest to Furbank in having the range of running, passing and kicking skills.

but I do want to say that any full-back skill that Daly has, MSmith has in spades. Daly is certainly the same category as Furbank, but it's a huge drop-off in quality and I'm hoping he's not an option we're planning on using.

Puja

I'd disagree with both those statements. Daly is better positionally, I reckon has a bigger boot, better at hitting a line in attack in the wide channels, and doesn't represent a HUGE drop off in quality (albeit he's lost a yard) v either Smith at 15 or Furbank. They all have different strengths, and Smith is a 10 all day for me.

I'd want Smith to be starting at 15 in some European games before I'd ever start him at 15 for England against a good test team. We have no idea what he's like early in a game, when good kickers will move him about, test him from 1st phase; further, how effective is he at hitting the line outside 13. Full back remains a pretty specialist position imo.

Bigger boot I will potentially give you, although I would counter that with Daly's kicking being nowhere near as accurate as MSmith's - big and in the wrong place is worse.

I think the question is one of where the highest ceiling for a player at international level is. MSmith is a better player than Cipriani, but suffers the same problem - he'll go for gaps that would be there at club level but aren't always at international, meaning that he's going to make half breaks and get scragged, leaving us without a 10 for the next two phases. At club level, you build the entire team around him making those half-breaks and have everyone running to the rhythm of the unpredictable maestro, but it can't be done as effectively at international level because players don't have the same amount of time to synchronise themselves to his rhythms and aren't as perfectly on his wavelength (not to mention you leave yourselves hugely vunerable if you've built a team around a player who then gets injured), with the additional problem that his success rate of run to break is going to be lower at the higher level and you cannot have an international side where the 10 is regularly buried at the bottom of a ruck.

So we either curtail the gifts that make Marcus the player that he is, force him to play within himself and eschew his eye for a gap, or we just pick FSmith instead and waste MSmith as a bench option to bring on when chasing a game.

I choose option 3 of letting Marcus be Marcus and get the good running from him, while also having a 10 to build the backline around. Obviously I would prefer him playing 15 in European games as well, but Harlequins aren't ever going to do that because their next 10 is a significant distance worse, so we have to let him learn on the job, which I don't believe is as risky a proposition as you do, given that he has taken to it like a duck to water every time he's played there for England.

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

Smith did play full back from the 8th minute away to France last year as Furbank went off injured. Had a very decent game IIRC.

[Banquo]

but I do want to say that any full-back skill that Daly has, MSmith has in spades. Daly is certainly the same category as Furbank, but it's a huge drop-off in quality and I'm hoping he's not an option we're planning on using.

Puja

I'd disagree with both those statements. Daly is better positionally, I reckon has a bigger boot, better at hitting a line in attack in the wide channels, and doesn't represent a HUGE drop off in quality (albeit he's lost a yard) v either Smith at 15 or Furbank. They all have different strengths, and Smith is a 10 all day for me.

I'd want Smith to be starting at 15 in some European games before I'd ever start him at 15 for England against a good test team. We have no idea what he's like early in a game, when good kickers will move him about, test him from 1st phase; further, how effective is he at hitting the line outside 13. Full back remains a pretty specialist position imo.

Bigger boot I will potentially give you, although I would counter that with Daly's kicking being nowhere near as accurate as MSmith's - big and in the wrong place is worse.

I think the question is one of where the highest ceiling for a player at international level is. MSmith is a better player than Cipriani, but suffers the same problem - he'll go for gaps that would be there at club level but aren't always at international, meaning that he's going to make half breaks and get scragged, leaving us without a 10 for the next two phases. At club level, you build the entire team around him making those half-breaks and have everyone running to the rhythm of the unpredictable maestro, but it can't be done as effectively at international level because players don't have the same amount of time to synchronise themselves to his rhythms and aren't as perfectly on his wavelength (not to mention you leave yourselves hugely vunerable if you've built a team around a player who then gets injured), with the additional problem that his success rate of run to break is going to be lower at the higher level and you cannot have an international side where the 10 is regularly buried at the bottom of a ruck.

So we either curtail the gifts that make Marcus the player that he is, force him to play within himself and eschew his eye for a gap, or we just pick FSmith instead and waste MSmith as a bench option to bring on when chasing a game.

I choose option 3 of letting Marcus be Marcus and get the good running from him, while also having a 10 to build the backline around. Obviously I would prefer him playing 15 in European games as well, but Harlequins aren't ever going to do that because their next 10 is a significant distance worse, so we have to let him learn on the job, which I don't believe is as risky a proposition as you do, given that he has taken to it like a duck to water every time he's played there for England.

Puja

Not you and ceilings now. I'm still not seeing the HUGE drop off but we'll let that go.

I plain don't agree on Smith as a fulltime England 15, when not playing there at club level- until and unless I see him in a whole game and properly tested (accepting I may have missed that somewhere tho ). The last 20 mins are a completely different kettle of fish.

[p/d]

Aye. Smith is a 10 all day long. I’d be happier seeing him tested at 9 (where I think he could have been bob on) than 15.

With Steward, Carpenter and the poor man’s Foden playing there week in week out gives us the options England need.

[Stom]

True, he had played more at 15 before he played wing, but I'm not sure what point you're making?

He looked far better on the wing than he ever did at centre/fullback. Wouldn't have been close to that Lions tour in those positions.

He looks a much more competent 15 now and is probably the closest to Furbank in having the range of running, passing and kicking skills.

but I do want to say that any full-back skill that Daly has, MSmith has in spades. Daly is certainly the same category as Furbank, but it's a huge drop-off in quality and I'm hoping he's not an option we're planning on using.

Puja

I'd disagree with both those statements. Daly is better positionally, I reckon has a bigger boot, better at hitting a line in attack in the wide channels, and doesn't represent a HUGE drop off in quality (albeit he's lost a yard) v either Smith at 15 or Furbank. They all have different strengths, and Smith is a 10 all day for me.

I'd want Smith to be starting at 15 in some European games before I'd ever start him at 15 for England against a good test team. We have no idea what he's like early in a game, when good kickers will move him about, test him from 1st phase; further, how effective is he at hitting the line outside 13. Full back remains a pretty specialist position imo.

Yeah, until the drop off from smith to Evans is bigger than the gap between a competent rugby player and my dead great gran, that’s not happening.

Maybe if Quins sign a half competent FH…

[Mr Mwenda]

I've forgotten how far out from the 6n England usually name the squad. Must be fairly soon, right? You lot are fulfilling your traditional role in getting me excited about players to come in (Willis, Atkinson) who will either not be selected, be injured the week before the tournament or will underwhelm.

[Danno]

I've forgotten how far out from the 6n England usually name the squad. Must be fairly soon, right? You lot are fulfilling your traditional role in getting me excited about players to come in (Willis, Atkinson) who will either not be selected, be injured the week before the tournament or will underwhelm.

14 January according to Charlie Morgan

[Mellsblue]

Have you heard of this guy Seb Atkinson? He's farking brilliant.

He better be.

[Mr Mwenda]

Ta, Danno

[Scrumhead]

Sounds like Underhill may be out.

This is going to sound like a wind up and isn’t a question I ever expected to ask but … is Cracknell completely off the radar for England as a big, nasty 6? Arguably he's one of the form players in the Premiership, he's only 30 and he's actually English despite his Welsh call-up in 2017 and U20s caps.

I think he’s better than Roots and I could see him doing a Mark Wilson-esque job.

[Puja]

Sounds like Underhill may be out.

This is going to sound like a wind up and isn’t a question I ever expected to ask but … is Cracknell completely off the radar for England as a big, nasty 6? Arguably he's one of the form players in the Premiership, he's only 30 and he's actually English despite his Welsh call-up in 2017 and U20s caps.

I think he’s better than Roots and I could see him doing a Mark Wilson-esque job.

Yes. Completely and utterly. He's in a decent run of form, but that's all it is - this is as good as it's possible for him to get and there will be a reversion to the mean in time.

Puja