America

[Puja]

As an alternative to discussing the merits of violence in a good cause where do people stand on the issue of Washington DC statehood? Which is to say should DC become its own state granting it full voting powers on a par with other states? And then maybe should similar be done in Puerto Rico?

I'm in the camp that says yes, but I recognise that's a big change, the GOP will dislike putting 4 almost certainly safe Democratic seats into the Senate (you'd like to think that shouldn't be an issue but reality says otherwise) so is the best bet to hold out for statehood, or are there other steps which would be seen by many as falling short of interim steps but might actually happen in the near to medium term?

I think it's absolutely bananas that DC, Puerto Rico, and Amefican Samoa are not states with full voting rights. Isn't there's something mildly famous about taxation without representation?

The only argument I can see against it is the Republican one that all three would be solidly Democratic. What's the official argument for why the shouldn't have representation?

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Would also be nice if minority voters, especially the black vote, wasn't being actively suppressed.

This. It's easy to say "get out and vote" it's harder to do when you've been actively and maliciously disenfranchised.
Meanwhile, Republican voters are being actively encouraged to try voting twice.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

[Digby]

Vote for who? Who's out there campaining on a ticket of National police reform to purge systematic racism, often culminating in murder

Would also be nice if minority voters, especially the black vote, wasn't being actively suppressed.

Because voting works, not because it doesn't. So the aim should be to get organised and get the voting numbers up over 80% and work to engage communities in the decision making that creates policy platforms, that puts forward candidates.

The USA has some weird political structures, and more than most nations it needs to pay heed to the notion it's a Republic (for which in this instance read democracy) if you can keep it. Though fwiw the more actively suppressed black vote you observe comes in well ahead of other large minority groups in voting percentages

[Digby]

Would also be nice if minority voters, especially the black vote, wasn't being actively suppressed.

This. It's easy to say "get out and vote" it's harder to do when you've been actively and maliciously disenfranchised.
Meanwhile, Republican voters are being actively encouraged to try voting twice.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

yes it can be hard, but what's the bloody easy solution? and again, black voting is pretty much on a par with white voting in the USA, it dipped a little in 2016 but broadly there's not a lot in it

[Which Tyler]

Would also be nice if minority voters, especially the black vote, wasn't being actively suppressed.

This. It's easy to say "get out and vote" it's harder to do when you've been actively and maliciously disenfranchised.
Meanwhile, Republican voters are being actively encouraged to try voting twice.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

yes it can be hard, but what's the bloody easy solution? and again, black voting is pretty much on a par with white voting in the USA, it dipped a little in 2016 but broadly there's not a lot in it

And what's the disenfranchisement rate between the races?

Remember, it's hard to vote when you're not allowed to for no reasons beyond your socioeconomic status.

Voting in the US and the UK is not alike.
We don't limit and locate voting stations to be as hard to reach as possible for anything without a car
We don't fire workers for voting
We don't require hard-to-obtain ID in order to vote
We don't randomly purge the electoral role
We don't remove the vote from people because of a trumped up police charge

That the black vote in america is around the same level as the white vote says amazing things about black people's willingness to vote - in precisely the opposite direction to your implications.

[Digby]

This. It's easy to say "get out and vote" it's harder to do when you've been actively and maliciously disenfranchised.
Meanwhile, Republican voters are being actively encouraged to try voting twice.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

yes it can be hard, but what's the bloody easy solution? and again, black voting is pretty much on a par with white voting in the USA, it dipped a little in 2016 but broadly there's not a lot in it

And what's the disenfranchisement rate between the races?

Remember, it's hard to vote when you're not allowed to for no reasons beyond your socioeconomic status.

Voting in the US and the UK is not alike.
We don't limit and locate voting stations to be as hard to reach as possible for anything without a car
We don't fire workers for voting
We don't require hard-to-obtain ID in order to vote
We don't randomly purge the electoral role
We don't remove the vote from people because of a trumped up police charge

That the black vote in america is around the same level as the white vote says amazing things about black people's willingness to vote - in precisely the opposite direction to your implications.

I agree it can be hard, that was actually the implication I was making when saying 'yes it can be hard', but I don't see many better alternatives than trying to do better. I've spent a bit of time each month for about 30 months now on some campaign support stuff for communities trying to boost their number of registered voters, I'm enjoying some time almost as IT support again (not that I ever quite did that) in helping them be able to track and communicate issues, and for sure there are problems, though perhaps less impactful than some outrageous gerrymandering by the GOP, so one certainly hears many of the problems.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Voting in the US and the UK is not alike.
We don't limit and locate voting stations to be as hard to reach as possible for anything without a car
We don't fire workers for voting
We don't require hard-to-obtain ID in order to vote
We don't randomly purge the electoral role
We don't remove the vote from people because of a trumped up police charge

Although I wonder how many of those the uk will have in 4 years' time.

[Digby]

As an alternative to discussing the merits of violence in a good cause where do people stand on the issue of Washington DC statehood? Which is to say should DC become its own state granting it full voting powers on a par with other states? And then maybe should similar be done in Puerto Rico?

I'm in the camp that says yes, but I recognise that's a big change, the GOP will dislike putting 4 almost certainly safe Democratic seats into the Senate (you'd like to think that shouldn't be an issue but reality says otherwise) so is the best bet to hold out for statehood, or are there other steps which would be seen by many as falling short of interim steps but might actually happen in the near to medium term?

I think it's absolutely bananas that DC, Puerto Rico, and Amefican Samoa are not states with full voting rights. Isn't there's something mildly famous about taxation without representation?

The only argument I can see against it is the Republican one that all three would be solidly Democratic. What's the official argument for why the shouldn't have representation?

Puja

Official arguments basically don't exist, such answers we have range from now is not the right time to there are more pressing concerns and all that nonsense. There are some reasonable shouts, sort of, as a territory Puerto Rico is exempt from a requirement to pay federal taxes, so Statehood would increase the tax burden on an already struggling economy (yes there are things which would be done about that but it's not nothing), and that in a good number of referenda the people have rejected Statehood way more often than not. That said when statehood has been rejected there's normally an argument about the wording of the proposals, what proposals are included (and to get federal funding to have a referendum the feds have to approve the question which is often itself a problem) and votes have been poorly understood and often subject to widespread boycotts, though a lot of the boycotts are driven by those against statehood, all around it's a very mess picture. In the last vote I seem to recall a majority did actually vote in favour of Statehood, certainly if you exclude those who didn't vote, which is a slight issue because a lot of people knew the vote was going nowhere and intentionally boycotted the thing. We certainly don't have a clear picture based on some clear questions with an agreed threshold in voting % and returns, some well funded education programmes and the like to say the people have determined what they want.

If you can get Puerto Rico to agree there's still a big problem with Congress because, and this is another real problem, there's no official path to statehood so it's super easy for Congress to kick the can down the road and claim Rome wasn't built in a day and never get around to setting a path. And sometimes they get parties saying they'll support a push, Trump actually said he'd support self determination back in 2016 but has since reneged, Democrats often say they'll help but perhaps they kick the can down the road in trading off the issue with the GOP for something they care about and they'd rather keep DC and PR as issues than resolve them, to garner attention, for fund raising and to have as an issue to attack the GOP over.

[Digby]

Voting in the US and the UK is not alike.
We don't limit and locate voting stations to be as hard to reach as possible for anything without a car
We don't fire workers for voting
We don't require hard-to-obtain ID in order to vote
We don't randomly purge the electoral role
We don't remove the vote from people because of a trumped up police charge

Although I wonder how many of those the uk will have in 4 years' time.

Next you'll be telling me Boris and Agent Cummings are reaching out to the media to have journalists replaced where they're insufficiently boosterish about Boris

[Which Tyler]

Voting in the US and the UK is not alike.
We don't limit and locate voting stations to be as hard to reach as possible for anything without a car
We don't fire workers for voting
We don't require hard-to-obtain ID in order to vote
We don't randomly purge the electoral role
We don't remove the vote from people because of a trumped up police charge

Although I wonder how many of those the uk will have in 4 years' time.

Next you'll be telling me Boris and Agent Cummings are reaching out to the media to have journalists replaced where they're insufficiently boosterish about Boris

And comedians - don't forget the comedians

[Son of Mathonwy]

Although I wonder how many of those the uk will have in 4 years' time.

Next you'll be telling me Boris and Agent Cummings are reaching out to the media to have journalists replaced where they're insufficiently boosterish about Boris

And comedians - don't forget the comedians

Now you guys are getting paranoid.

[Digby]

Next you'll be telling me Boris and Agent Cummings are reaching out to the media to have journalists replaced where they're insufficiently boosterish about Boris

And comedians - don't forget the comedians

Now you guys are getting paranoid.

I'd be willing to consider they had a point but at this point they're considering Ian Hislop as dangerously left wing. Also this are supposed to the bunch who think talent will rise to the top anyway to join the ranks of Jim Davidson and Geoff Northcott, and in theory they don't like the idea of institutional meddling

[Son of Mathonwy]

And comedians - don't forget the comedians

Now you guys are getting paranoid.

I'd be willing to consider they had a point but at this point they're considering Ian Hislop as dangerously left wing. Also this are supposed to the bunch who think talent will rise to the top anyway to join the ranks of Jim Davidson and Geoff Northcott, and in theory they don't like the idea of institutional meddling

They like weirdos who think outside of the box.

As long as it's the right kind of outside.

[Stom]

I just wanted to post about some very interesting music the world has thrown at me recently, music that fits this perfectly...

My wife has a box of unlabelled CDs full of music. As we have similar taste, I thought it would be cool to work through some of them, so I picked up a handful and threw them in the car. I picked a CD at random and put it on. First song was Eminem. The lyrics were...

Look at these eyes baby blue baby just like yourself
If they were brown
Shady lose
Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute
Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby)
Look at myself!
Let's do the math
If I was black I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg

Then I read an article about Skin, from Skunk Anansie. I've not listened to them for more than 10 years, so I put some on.

He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
He's always tryin' to make up for his little slips
The joke about the nigga and the yellow nip
Then he tells me I'm so different from those other shits When he tries to intellectualise my blackness
He tried to summarise, to institutionalise
Still I could recognise, he was materialised
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
Motherfucker don't you lecture-rise me Don't you ever try to intellectualise me Motherfucker don't you intellectualise me Oh No
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness

You know what. These lyrics are made for now. They fit this narrative.

Stop saying these black kids in America should just go out and vote, they should subscribe to the same narrative you do, that you know and understand their problem. Have you listened to it? Have you spoken to them? How do you know what their problem is unless you're actively out there listening and living the same situation?

You can't. So sit back and listen to what they say. They know their own problems better than you do.

[Sandydragon]

I just wanted to post about some very interesting music the world has thrown at me recently, music that fits this perfectly...

My wife has a box of unlabelled CDs full of music. As we have similar taste, I thought it would be cool to work through some of them, so I picked up a handful and threw them in the car. I picked a CD at random and put it on. First song was Eminem. The lyrics were...

Look at these eyes baby blue baby just like yourself
If they were brown
Shady lose
Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute
Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby)
Look at myself!
Let's do the math
If I was black I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg

Then I read an article about Skin, from Skunk Anansie. I've not listened to them for more than 10 years, so I put some on.

He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
He's always tryin' to make up for his little slips
The joke about the nigga and the yellow nip
Then he tells me I'm so different from those other shits When he tries to intellectualise my blackness
He tried to summarise, to institutionalise
Still I could recognise, he was materialised
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
Motherfucker don't you lecture-rise me Don't you ever try to intellectualise me Motherfucker don't you intellectualise me Oh No
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness

You know what. These lyrics are made for now. They fit this narrative.

Stop saying these black kids in America should just go out and vote, they should subscribe to the same narrative you do, that you know and understand their problem. Have you listened to it? Have you spoken to them? How do you know what their problem is unless you're actively out there listening and living the same situation?

You can't. So sit back and listen to what they say. They know their own problems better than you do.

Thats lovely. Now consider how they are reinforcing stereotypes and are giving more credibility to Trump's preferred response. Because the reality is that they are a minority and many of the majority look at constant rioting and think its time to send in the National Guard. There was a huge amount of sympathy following recent police brutality, now that message is blurred by the riots. Their tactics are counter productive. Not a popular view I know but its how the situation is playing out.

[Mikey Brown]

I just wanted to post about some very interesting music the world has thrown at me recently, music that fits this perfectly...

My wife has a box of unlabelled CDs full of music. As we have similar taste, I thought it would be cool to work through some of them, so I picked up a handful and threw them in the car. I picked a CD at random and put it on. First song was Eminem. The lyrics were...

Look at these eyes baby blue baby just like yourself
If they were brown
Shady lose
Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute
Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby)
Look at myself!
Let's do the math
If I was black I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg

Then I read an article about Skin, from Skunk Anansie. I've not listened to them for more than 10 years, so I put some on.

He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
He's always tryin' to make up for his little slips
The joke about the nigga and the yellow nip
Then he tells me I'm so different from those other shits When he tries to intellectualise my blackness
He tried to summarise, to institutionalise
Still I could recognise, he was materialised
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
Motherfucker don't you lecture-rise me Don't you ever try to intellectualise me Motherfucker don't you intellectualise me Oh No
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness

You know what. These lyrics are made for now. They fit this narrative.

Stop saying these black kids in America should just go out and vote, they should subscribe to the same narrative you do, that you know and understand their problem. Have you listened to it? Have you spoken to them? How do you know what their problem is unless you're actively out there listening and living the same situation?

You can't. So sit back and listen to what they say. They know their own problems better than you do.

Thats lovely. Now consider how they are reinforcing stereotypes and are giving more credibility to Trump's preferred response. Because the reality is that they are a minority and many of the majority look at constant rioting and think its time to send in the National Guard. There was a huge amount of sympathy following recent police brutality, now that message is blurred by the riots. Their tactics are counter productive. Not a popular view I know but its how the situation is playing out.

Errr...

[Stom]

I just wanted to post about some very interesting music the world has thrown at me recently, music that fits this perfectly...

My wife has a box of unlabelled CDs full of music. As we have similar taste, I thought it would be cool to work through some of them, so I picked up a handful and threw them in the car. I picked a CD at random and put it on. First song was Eminem. The lyrics were...

Look at these eyes baby blue baby just like yourself
If they were brown
Shady lose
Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute
Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby)
Look at myself!
Let's do the math
If I was black I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg

Then I read an article about Skin, from Skunk Anansie. I've not listened to them for more than 10 years, so I put some on.

He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
He's always tryin' to make up for his little slips
The joke about the nigga and the yellow nip
Then he tells me I'm so different from those other shits When he tries to intellectualise my blackness
He tried to summarise, to institutionalise
Still I could recognise, he was materialised
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
Motherfucker don't you lecture-rise me Don't you ever try to intellectualise me Motherfucker don't you intellectualise me Oh No
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness

You know what. These lyrics are made for now. They fit this narrative.

Stop saying these black kids in America should just go out and vote, they should subscribe to the same narrative you do, that you know and understand their problem. Have you listened to it? Have you spoken to them? How do you know what their problem is unless you're actively out there listening and living the same situation?

You can't. So sit back and listen to what they say. They know their own problems better than you do.

Thats lovely. Now consider how they are reinforcing stereotypes and are giving more credibility to Trump's preferred response. Because the reality is that they are a minority and many of the majority look at constant rioting and think its time to send in the National Guard. There was a huge amount of sympathy following recent police brutality, now that message is blurred by the riots. Their tactics are counter productive. Not a popular view I know but its how the situation is playing out.

Yeah, you've just done that exact thing.

Kinda impossible for there not to be riots. There were peaceful protests where the police were firing rubber bullets, throwing tear gas, and pushing old men onto the floor, stepping over their convulsing bodies to find their next victim. All while taping over their bodycams so no-one had evidence to prove they were the ones committing the crimes.

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, you've just done that exact thing.

Kinda impossible for there not to be riots. There were peaceful protests where the police were firing rubber bullets, throwing tear gas, and pushing old men onto the floor, stepping over their convulsing bodies to find their next victim. All while taping over their bodycams so no-one had evidence to prove they were the ones committing the crimes.

You can't judge all cops by the thugs and murderers in their ranks and the crimes for which most of them are accessories to.
Look, there's someone looting - all three thousand of the other protestors must therefore be looting as well.


He was walking back to his car to get the ID the cops demanded he show - absolutely deserves to be shot repeatedly in the back, he was provoking them by doing what he was told.
Look, I don't care if he was shot in the face with a rubber bullet - that's no reason to disrespect the authority of the policeman who shot him; shooting someone in the face is NOT a provokation.


Sorry, I nearly forgot:
That black man should absolutely be charged for viciously and repeatedly assaulting that officer's fist with his nose.

[morepork]

I just wanted to post about some very interesting music the world has thrown at me recently, music that fits this perfectly...

My wife has a box of unlabelled CDs full of music. As we have similar taste, I thought it would be cool to work through some of them, so I picked up a handful and threw them in the car. I picked a CD at random and put it on. First song was Eminem. The lyrics were...

Look at these eyes baby blue baby just like yourself
If they were brown
Shady lose
Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute
Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby)
Look at myself!
Let's do the math
If I was black I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg

Then I read an article about Skin, from Skunk Anansie. I've not listened to them for more than 10 years, so I put some on.

He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
He's always tryin' to make up for his little slips
The joke about the nigga and the yellow nip
Then he tells me I'm so different from those other shits When he tries to intellectualise my blackness
He tried to summarise, to institutionalise
Still I could recognise, he was materialised
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness
He tried to intellectualise my blackness, ooh save me
Motherfucker don't you lecture-rise me Don't you ever try to intellectualise me Motherfucker don't you intellectualise me Oh No
He tried to intellectualise my blackness
To make it easier for his whiteness

You know what. These lyrics are made for now. They fit this narrative.

Stop saying these black kids in America should just go out and vote, they should subscribe to the same narrative you do, that you know and understand their problem. Have you listened to it? Have you spoken to them? How do you know what their problem is unless you're actively out there listening and living the same situation?

You can't. So sit back and listen to what they say. They know their own problems better than you do.

Thats lovely. Now consider how they are reinforcing stereotypes and are giving more credibility to Trump's preferred response. Because the reality is that they are a minority and many of the majority look at constant rioting and think its time to send in the National Guard. There was a huge amount of sympathy following recent police brutality, now that message is blurred by the riots. Their tactics are counter productive. Not a popular view I know but its how the situation is playing out.

No it isn't. That tired riot narrative bears little resemblance to what is happening on the ground. The cops and armed their cosplay Klan sympathisers are the main problem.

[morepork]

Speaking of armed dress up. Got an assault rifle and some time on your hands come election day? Become an intimidation tactic....I mean "election watcher".




How can this stand?

[Mikey Brown]

Speaking of armed dress up. Got an assault rifle and some time on your hands come election day? Become an intimidation tactic....I mean "election watcher".




How can this stand?

Does his subtlety know no bounds?

[gransoporro]

Speaking of armed dress up. Got an assault rifle and some time on your hands come election day? Become an intimidation tactic....I mean "election watcher".




How can this stand?

Does his subtlety know no bounds?

No.

This is Berlusconi 2.0 for me. When you think it’s not possible to go any lower, he starts digging. Hard.

[morepork]

Speaking of armed dress up. Got an assault rifle and some time on your hands come election day? Become an intimidation tactic....I mean "election watcher".




How can this stand?

Does his subtlety know no bounds?

No.

This is Berlusconi 2.0 for me. When you think it’s not possible to go any lower, he starts digging. Hard.

I'd like to nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize, for your services to political discourse on a rugby site during a pandemic.

[gransoporro]

Wait, I am brokering peace between Palestine and Israel. Then I will have a better shot at the Nobel (Noble?) prize.

Give me a couple of hours.

[Which Tyler]

Jeez America sure is having some bad luck at the moment.
It's almost like much of it was built on old Indian burial sites.