RugbyRebels

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:25 am**

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2025 5:08 pm Concern I have with the back row is the lack of a real breakdown threat. Tom Curry, Underhill and Earl get the odd one but they aren’t regularly pilfering ball. Earl in particular seems to have a technique that international refs don’t like. Tom Willis is actually quite good there…

Pollock and Pepper are both good options there but I do wonder if Kenningham might have a game that translates well to internationals. Tough, very strong in lineout and leading the prem in turnovers currently.

Absolutely. All of the above. Not a highlight reel player but does everything very, very well and always seems to have a really calm demeanour. Definitely worth a look and he’s the sort of player that wouldn’t be phased going straight into big games.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:33 am**

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:33 am Sounds like Underhill may be out.

This is going to sound like a wind up and isn’t a question I ever expected to ask but … is Cracknell completely off the radar for England as a big, nasty 6? Arguably he's one of the form players in the Premiership, he's only 30 and he's actually English despite his Welsh call-up in 2017 and U20s caps.

I think he’s better than Roots and I could see him doing a Mark Wilson-esque job.

Apols for tardiness, got here as soon as I could. Not sure how we could be considering a decent player like Cracknell for the squad when TWillis hasn’t even had a look in yet.

Comparisons to Mark Wilson aren’t valid. Wilson came in when the cupboard was bare. I do like Kenningham and it’s not long ago we actually selected Roots. Kenningham has a much higher ceiling, and has that relentless quality about him that TWillis has in spades. Oops.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:59 am**

Which of our back row candidates (if any) would walk in as starters in the other 6N teams? I'd suggest that if you gave all the other HCs one pick, Tom Willis would get most votes. (His brother would start for France.)

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:07 am**

It is about having a top class unit that works exceptionally well to the be benefit of the side as a whole. I don’t doubt for a moment we have the players available for that….. but Willis at 8 had to be the starting point.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:32 am**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:59 am Which of our back row candidates (if any) would walk in as starters in the other 6N teams? I'd suggest that if you gave all the other HCs one pick, Tom Willis would get most votes. (His brother would start for France.)

Considering Englishmen Bayliss and Christie get games for Scotland, we can probably assume Willis, Underhill, Chessum would.

Italy and Wales would have any combo of Englishman play at 6 and 8.

Ireland and France obviously very strong although could see an Englishman playing 6 for Ireland given POM at end of his career and Beirne is better at lock where they don’t have loads of depth.

The combo is what it is about for England. Curry x 2, Underhill, Willis, Earl, chessum, CCS all good players. We had the likes of Kenningham, Pepper, Hill, Barbeary, Mercer who didn’t even get a minute in an A game in autumn.

International selection for England is all about picking the right player out of a long list. Not even slightly easy.

Saying that, you can start by picking Tom Willis ahead of Dombrant…

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:09 am**

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:32 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:59 am Which of our back row candidates (if any) would walk in as starters in the other 6N teams? I'd suggest that if you gave all the other HCs one pick, Tom Willis would get most votes. (His brother would start for France.)
Considering Englishmen Bayliss and Christie get games for Scotland, we can probably assume Willis, Underhill, Chessum would.

"Walk in as a starter" is not remotely what Bayliss has done though. He's probably 6th or 7th choice at the moment as Scotland don't have much depth. England have a lot of (unproven) depth that seems to keep getting mistaken as overall top quality.

Christie looked absolutely class once he got going though. Such a shame to see this series of injuries halt his progress. I think England could regret letting him get away, despite the number of great potential players.

I wouldn't pick any English 6 ahead of Matt Fagerson right now. Tom Willis looks fantastic (the sort of talent that could be up there with Doris/Savea) but is still more promise than proof at the top level. Darge is class but Underhill probably edges that if fit. Earl has been great but I'm not sure I'd want to give up what Dempsey offers in defence and keeping the ball alive.

It's all a bit moot though, obviously different environments bring different things out of players. If only England had been able to do whatever it is Toulouse have done with Jack Willis.

Kenningham is a funny one as an England contender. I feel like maybe he's dismissed as a 'mere' Robshaw+, and Borthwick doesn't seem interested, but I agree he seems to have that tough/relentless edge that could make him a good international. I was interested to see it mentioned he's top of the turnovers this season. I wouldn't have guessed that and have worried he'll be given the dreaded 6.5 tag.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:33 am**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:09 am Tom Willis looks fantastic (the sort of talent that could be up there with Doris/Savea) but is still more promise than proof at the top level.

That is the whole issue, IMO. It's a classic 'I would not start from here' point in the selection debate. Had he been first choice in the AIs, as he should have been, Willis would now be an automatic pick (or discarded as unable to transfer club form to the international stage).

SB's back row selections for the AIs were conservative (stodgy) and unimaginative. Picking so many 'same-olds' backfired. The case for them was quite strong IF they contributed to winning form. They did not - to the extent that experimentation could not even be an option for the Japan game. It's not hindsight to claim this either. Lots of us said it when the squad was announced.

Now, unfortunately, it is a reasonable management decision NOT to pick Willis to start for the reason you outline. A back row of Chessum, Curry (either) and Earl might be the safe bet for Dublin. I'd start none of them but I could understand SB choosing to do so. I suppose the next question is whether he will even have the nerve to pick Willis on the bench ahead of Dombrandt.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:15 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:09 am
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:32 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:59 am Which of our back row candidates (if any) would walk in as starters in the other 6N teams? I'd suggest that if you gave all the other HCs one pick, Tom Willis would get most votes. (His brother would start for France.)
Considering Englishmen Bayliss and Christie get games for Scotland, we can probably assume Willis, Underhill, Chessum would.

"Walk in as a starter" is not remotely what Bayliss has done though. He's probably 6th or 7th choice at the moment as Scotland don't have much depth. England have a lot of (unproven) depth that seems to keep getting mistaken as overall top quality.

Christie looked absolutely class once he got going though. Such a shame to see this series of injuries halt his progress. I think England could regret letting him get away, despite the number of great potential players.

I wouldn't pick any English 6 ahead of Matt Fagerson right now. Tom Willis looks fantastic (the sort of talent that could be up there with Doris/Savea) but is still more promise than proof at the top level. Darge is class but Underhill probably edges that if fit. Earl has been great but I'm not sure I'd want to give up what Dempsey offers in defence and keeping the ball alive.

It's all a bit moot though, obviously different environments bring different things out of players. If only England had been able to do whatever it is Toulouse have done with Jack Willis.

Kenningham is a funny one as an England contender. I feel like maybe he's dismissed as a 'mere' Robshaw+, and Borthwick doesn't seem interested, but I agree he seems to have that tough/relentless edge that could make him a good international. I was interested to see it mentioned he's top of the turnovers this season. I wouldn't have guessed that and have worried he'll be given the dreaded 6.5 tag.

I agree with 99% of this but I don’t think it’s fair to say Borthwick ‘doesn’t seem interested’ in Kenningham. He’s 8 or 9 games back from a year out. He wasn’t available to be picked before this season and the AIs came to soon for him to leapfrog his competition. Willis and Pollock have probably been the stand out back rowers this season, but Kenningham is not far behind. It wouldn’t be fair to dismiss Willis and Pollock as highlight reel players but Kenningham is pure unflashy (but vital) doggedness and that’s probably why he’s less talked about.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:20 pm**

Beasties wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:33 am
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:33 am Sounds like Underhill may be out.

This is going to sound like a wind up and isn’t a question I ever expected to ask but … is Cracknell completely off the radar for England as a big, nasty 6? Arguably he's one of the form players in the Premiership, he's only 30 and he's actually English despite his Welsh call-up in 2017 and U20s caps.

I think he’s better than Roots and I could see him doing a Mark Wilson-esque job.
Apols for tardiness, got here as soon as I could. Not sure how we could be considering a decent player like Crachnell for the squad when TWillis hasn’t even had a look in yet.

Comparisons to Mark Wilson aren’t valid. Wilson came in when the cupboard was bare. I do like Kenningham and it’s not long ago we actually selected Roots. Kenningham has a much higher ceiling, and has that relentless quality about him that TWillis has in spades. Oops.

FWIW ‘doing a Mark Wilson-esque job’ was intended to mean an older player slotting in quickly rather than a comment on his playing style. I was also in no way suggesting Cracknell > Willis.

I think Cracknell will get a Wales call-up and I think he’ll do well. Not that I see that as a major loss to England.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 1:09 pm**

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:15 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:09 am
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:32 am

Considering Englishmen Bayliss and Christie get games for Scotland, we can probably assume Willis, Underhill, Chessum would.

"Walk in as a starter" is not remotely what Bayliss has done though. He's probably 6th or 7th choice at the moment as Scotland don't have much depth. England have a lot of (unproven) depth that seems to keep getting mistaken as overall top quality.

Christie looked absolutely class once he got going though. Such a shame to see this series of injuries halt his progress. I think England could regret letting him get away, despite the number of great potential players.

I wouldn't pick any English 6 ahead of Matt Fagerson right now. Tom Willis looks fantastic (the sort of talent that could be up there with Doris/Savea) but is still more promise than proof at the top level. Darge is class but Underhill probably edges that if fit. Earl has been great but I'm not sure I'd want to give up what Dempsey offers in defence and keeping the ball alive.

It's all a bit moot though, obviously different environments bring different things out of players. If only England had been able to do whatever it is Toulouse have done with Jack Willis.

Kenningham is a funny one as an England contender. I feel like maybe he's dismissed as a 'mere' Robshaw+, and Borthwick doesn't seem interested, but I agree he seems to have that tough/relentless edge that could make him a good international. I was interested to see it mentioned he's top of the turnovers this season. I wouldn't have guessed that and have worried he'll be given the dreaded 6.5 tag.
I agree with 99% of this but I don’t think it’s fair to say Borthwick ‘doesn’t seem interested’ in Kenningham. He’s 8 or 9 games back from a year out. He wasn’t available to be picked before this season and the AIs came to soon for him to leapfrog his competition. Willis and Pollock have probably been the stand out back rowers this season, but Kenningham is not far behind. It wouldn’t be fair to dismiss Willis and Pollock as highlight reel players but Kenningham is pure unflashy (but vital) doggedness and that’s probably why he’s less talked about.

Agreed, it’s been a slow road back for him, and Borthwick not being interested was meant to be within that ‘maybe’ bracket.

I also thought maybe he’s only going to look at that next, younger generation. I did think Kenningham was older than 25 though.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 2:20 pm**

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:20 pm
Beasties wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:33 am
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:33 am Sounds like Underhill may be out.

This is going to sound like a wind up and isn’t a question I ever expected to ask but … is Cracknell completely off the radar for England as a big, nasty 6? Arguably he's one of the form players in the Premiership, he's only 30 and he's actually English despite his Welsh call-up in 2017 and U20s caps.

I think he’s better than Roots and I could see him doing a Mark Wilson-esque job.
Apols for tardiness, got here as soon as I could. Not sure how we could be considering a decent player like Crachnell for the squad when TWillis hasn’t even had a look in yet.

Comparisons to Mark Wilson aren’t valid. Wilson came in when the cupboard was bare. I do like Kenningham and it’s not long ago we actually selected Roots. Kenningham has a much higher ceiling, and has that relentless quality about him that TWillis has in spades. Oops.
FWIW ‘doing a Mark Wilson-esque job’ was intended to mean an older player slotting in quickly rather than a comment on his playing style. I was also in no way suggesting Cracknell > Willis.

I think Cracknell will get a Wales call-up and I think he’ll do well. Not that I see that as a major loss to England.

S’alright, that’s exactly what I thought you meant

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 3:34 pm**

If there were any sale players on fringes of the 6N squad, they probably haven’t got in based on that.

Thought Rodd had a good battle in the scrum with Malherbe though.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:58 pm**

and now Exeter getting schooled. Nothing pretty about this

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:40 pm**

Shame Underhill got injured as for me he’s our best 7 ( Jack Willis aside). If SB moves Earl to 7, I’d hope he’d be asked to play to his strengths in the (recently redefined) role of ‘wing forward’ - i.e. to all intents and purposes as an additional three quarter in attack ( in the way Tipuric and Hooper would do on occasions). Earl’s wasted as simply a defensive jackal merchant but for the latter role I would use as criteria to pick a complementary 6 ( Shame we can’t pick Jack Willis imo as he’d be ideal ). Starting Tom Willis at 8 for hard carrying and 3rd lineout jumper might balance things nicely.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:13 pm**

Who is the complimentary 6 securing all the rucks while Earl is swanning around on the wing?

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:13 pm**

Don’t say Jack Willis.

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2025 8:53 am**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:13 pm Who is the complimentary 6 securing all the rucks while Earl is swanning around on the wing?

You may be surprised to here me say this, but if there was assurance it wasn’t going to nuke his long term playing career by featuring in this upcoming 6 Nations, I would have said Tom Curry would be ideal for this role. I think Ben Curry might work well in this capacity too from current squad. It does mean the carrying and lineout is largely left to the 8 but that looks like yet another reason for Borthwick to start Tom Willis there.

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:04 am**

Has Earl ever started a test at 7? Would like see how we could balance that. Think his main run at 7 was with CCS and Dombrant when Curry went off. That shitshow was probably the main reason we lost that test.

Earl at 7 and Willis at 8 with a complimentary 7
6 (Chessum maybe?) would also work from a future planning perspective with Pollocks skillset similar to Earl.

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:07 am**

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:04 am Has Earl ever started a test at 7?

Vs Japan at the World Cup. Iirc Eddie used off the bench as an openside.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:55 am**

Ojomoh’s looked good these past couple of weeks. Might have an outside shot at the senior squad.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:21 am**

Nice hands for the try from that Russell chip over the top. I still just can't really see it with Ojomoh at the top level though.

Another very concerning day for Ollie Lawrence and his ball retention. I'm really not sure what we do about it. If strike-running is his USP but he loses the ball 50% of the time it doesn't really seem worth it. I think the calls for Freeman at 13 are premature, and he's playing there even less than last season, but I'd imagine a lot of it comes from not being convinced by Lawrence's core skills.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:52 am**

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:55 am Ojomoh’s looked good these past couple of weeks. Might have an outside shot at the senior squad.

Always liked him. Ticks a lot of boxes for me. Think A team is more likely but he is a player who should be on the radar.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2025 11:44 am**

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:52 am
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:55 am Ojomoh’s looked good these past couple of weeks. Might have an outside shot at the senior squad.
Always liked him. Ticks a lot of boxes for me. Think A team is more likely but he is a player who should be on the radar.

His dad was a fantastically explosive no.8 who imo should have been first choice between ‘94 by which time Deano wasn’t quite the force he once was and ‘97 when Dayglo made that 8 shirt his own. Of course Cooke and Rowell b*llsed it up by trying to convert him into a test openside

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2025 1:11 pm**

I'd be perfectly happy with Seb and Max fighting for the 12 shirt this 6N

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2025 3:56 pm**

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:20 pm
Beasties wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:33 am
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:33 am Sounds like Underhill may be out.

This is going to sound like a wind up and isn’t a question I ever expected to ask but … is Cracknell completely off the radar for England as a big, nasty 6? Arguably he's one of the form players in the Premiership, he's only 30 and he's actually English despite his Welsh call-up in 2017 and U20s caps.

I think he’s better than Roots and I could see him doing a Mark Wilson-esque job.
Apols for tardiness, got here as soon as I could. Not sure how we could be considering a decent player like Crachnell for the squad when TWillis hasn’t even had a look in yet.

Comparisons to Mark Wilson aren’t valid. Wilson came in when the cupboard was bare. I do like Kenningham and it’s not long ago we actually selected Roots. Kenningham has a much higher ceiling, and has that relentless quality about him that TWillis has in spades. Oops.
FWIW ‘doing a Mark Wilson-esque job’ was intended to mean an older player slotting in quickly rather than a comment on his playing style. I was also in no way suggesting Cracknell > Willis.

I think Cracknell will get a Wales call-up and I think he’ll do well. Not that I see that as a major loss to England.

Cracknell is not in the Welsh squad for Six Nations and apparently has said he's had no contact with Wales.

Wales Online were suggesting Gatland was interested in Tom Lockett and Zack Wimbush. Wonder if they were asked and declined.

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