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Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.
Rightly so at the moment.
MB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:47 pm I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.
I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.
God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.
I'm not, I'm just not on the Smith-Messiah bandwagon.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:47 pm I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which.
I guess I’m just struggling not to associate the “hand-holding” rhetoric with all the bleating Farrelite Twitter morons, apologies, but it’s a reasonable assessment that all our options need accommodations made elsewhere in the side, as it stands.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:41 pmI'm not, I'm just not on the Smith-Messiah bandwagon.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:47 pm I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which.
If it helps, I'm still anti-Farrell; but at this moment in time, he's rightly ahead of Smith, especially if the pressure's on.
How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:53 pmDo you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.
Even when we weren't getting murdered up front neither flyhalf did much.Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:47 amHow do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:53 pmDo you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:47 amHow do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:53 pmDo you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.
you tell me? Take out 'controlling the attacking shape' and substitute 'backing him in all areas' if you like. The point remains that Smith had his club no 8, a 12 to play similarly to the Quins way AND his club coach to encourage/help/guide.I think if you are starting from the point of view that 10's can win games when all around them is a bit sh8t then we can't really take the discussion further.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:02 amBanquo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:47 amHow do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:53 pm
Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.
We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].
I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).
Having your club no8, who is also (fairly) being derided for playing terribly, and a similar 12 doesn’t automatically equal a good platform - and the rest of the backline that bears virtually no resemblance to his club setup. It can help towards it but if your forwards are getting humped by the second best team in the world and your attack ‘patterns’ are kick for pressure then a flyhalf like Smith will fail. He’s further hampered buy a kick return that is light years from that employed by Quins and that fails to induce the unstructured defences that, imo, he exploits better than any other England no10.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:02 amBanquo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:47 amHow do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:53 pm
Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.
We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].
I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).
Atkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:07 pmMB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:47 pm I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.
I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.
God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.
Tigers have a friendly with Saints on Monday, it's likely that Atkinson will be given the full 80 mins then and possibly next Saturday in the friendly reversal fixture (though Walsh or Meredith might also get a chance). Get a good chunk of minutes into his legs in case we need him at the business end of the season. He'll get plenty of game time at the start of next season as well.stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:23 pmAtkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:07 pmMB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:47 pm I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.
I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.
God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.
The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.
I agree FHs can't win games in poor teams etc. However, that does not stop them playing effectively with what decent ball they do get. Currently and regrettably, I agree with SB that Farrell can do a better job of it than Smith. In effect, we are all saying that Smith can't do it without a better team around him. I simply argue that he was given the best chance possible with the other factors mentioned. I'd not pick him for the RWC, if only two FHs go and if Ford and Farrell are fit. It gives me no pleasure to say that.Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:15 amI think if you are starting from the point of view that 10's can win games when all around them is a bit sh8t then we can't really take the discussion further.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:02 am
We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].
I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).
On the play like quins front, we do bits of it.....but imo don't look fit enough to sustain it at intl level.
He has?
I'm assuming that Fin Smith will be poached by Scotland, though maybe I'm being too pessimistic there.FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:47 pmTigers have a friendly with Saints on Monday, it's likely that Atkinson will be given the full 80 mins then and possibly next Saturday in the friendly reversal fixture (though Walsh or Meredith might also get a chance). Get a good chunk of minutes into his legs in case we need him at the business end of the season. He'll get plenty of game time at the start of next season as well.stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:23 pmAtkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:07 pm
MB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.
The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.
Next season we'll have Fin Smith, Ford, Farrell, Marcus Smith and Haydon-Wood as starters at their clubs. Orlando Bailey being bumped down to back up to accommodate Russell is a blow and George Barton not getting a look in at Glaws doesn't help. Sale have Curtis and Wilkinson where one of them really needs to leave as soon as possible in order to get game time. We might see Louie Johnson come through at Falcons.
To my eyes, yes, but I know you don't agree.Puja wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 1:38 pmHe has?
I'd be much happier with him getting proper game time, but I'm taking the consolation that next year he'll have a full pre-season, with a new coach in charge of selection, and will be able to hit the ground running with Pollard away for the RWC. With luck, he'll seize the opportunity and kick on.
Puja
As we was in the England 6N sides and Ben Healey has just announced he's picked Scotland over Ireland and agreed to join Edinburgh I think we should be ok. I'd still get him capped in the summer though.stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:59 pmI'm assuming that Fin Smith will be poached by Scotland, though maybe I'm being too pessimistic there.FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:47 pmTigers have a friendly with Saints on Monday, it's likely that Atkinson will be given the full 80 mins then and possibly next Saturday in the friendly reversal fixture (though Walsh or Meredith might also get a chance). Get a good chunk of minutes into his legs in case we need him at the business end of the season. He'll get plenty of game time at the start of next season as well.stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:23 pm
Atkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.
The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.
Next season we'll have Fin Smith, Ford, Farrell, Marcus Smith and Haydon-Wood as starters at their clubs. Orlando Bailey being bumped down to back up to accommodate Russell is a blow and George Barton not getting a look in at Glaws doesn't help. Sale have Curtis and Wilkinson where one of them really needs to leave as soon as possible in order to get game time. We might see Louie Johnson come through at Falcons.
It’s kinda comedic innitMikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 7:18 pm Sorry am I going completely mad or was this roughly how it played out in the 6 nations?
A game at 10 with Farrell outside,
20 minutes with Farrell at 12,
16 seconds off the bench with Lawrence at 12,
47 minutes with Lawrence at 12 (the rookie being framed as close in quality/impact to Esterhuizen) behind literally the worst forward pack domination we’ve seen for 10 years,
80 minutes on the bench?
I think most issues/problems/weaknesses became apparent long before the 6N. Smith as single-handed saviour was far-fetched, to say the least. Debating whether he was given the best chance or not might sound a bit hollow to Tom Willis who was given none while Dombrandt was persevered with.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 7:18 pm Sorry am I going completely mad or was this roughly how it played out in the 6 nations?
A game at 10 with Farrell outside,
20 minutes with Farrell at 12,
16 seconds off the bench with Lawrence at 12,
47 minutes with Lawrence at 12 (the rookie being framed as close in quality/impact to Esterhuizen) behind literally the worst forward pack domination we’ve seen for 10 years,
80 minutes on the bench?
I think you are bang on, sadly, albeit I can see why Steaming Blackpudding (yes, I’m had a lovely breakfast this morning) would need to be prosaic for the RWC given time constraints. I’m more interested in where he goes post World Cup… I expect to be disappointed.