RugbyRebels

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 11:44 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:52 am

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:55 am Ojomoh’s looked good these past couple of weeks. Might have an outside shot at the senior squad.

Always liked him. Ticks a lot of boxes for me. Think A team is more likely but he is a player who should be on the radar.

His dad was a fantastically explosive no.8 who imo should have been first choice between ‘94 by which time Deano wasn’t quite the force he once was and ‘97 when Dayglo made that 8 shirt his own. Of course Cooke and Rowell b*llsed it up by trying to convert him into a test openside

In fairness he played most of his 12 caps either off the bench or starting at 8, think he did have a couple of games at 7, but they were more interested in ruining Ben Clarke by sticking him at openside (they even gave dayglo one game there as well ). The real victim was of course Neil Back, until SCW rocked up. Those were the days when the positional title in the back row had real meaning

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:37 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 11:44 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:52 am

Always liked him. Ticks a lot of boxes for me. Think A team is more likely but he is a player who should be on the radar.

His dad was a fantastically explosive no.8 who imo should have been first choice between ‘94 by which time Deano wasn’t quite the force he once was and ‘97 when Dayglo made that 8 shirt his own. Of course Cooke and Rowell b*llsed it up by trying to convert him into a test openside

In fairness he played most of his 12 caps either off the bench or starting at 8, think he did have a couple of games at 7, but they were more interested in ruining Ben Clarke by sticking him at openside (they even gave dayglo one game there as well ). The real victim was of course Neil Back, until SCW rocked up. Those were the days when the positional title in the back row had real meaning

True these days I think the fetcher is as likely to be a 6 as a 7 and it may even see a return to the openside being used as an extra back a la Michael Jones and Josh Kronfeld. Such a role may have suited Tom Croft much better too rather than trying to fit him into a 6 role at test level.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 1:11 pm I'd be perfectly happy with Seb and Max fighting for the 12 shirt this 6N

Yes please

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:16 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:37 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 11:44 am

His dad was a fantastically explosive no.8 who imo should have been first choice between ‘94 by which time Deano wasn’t quite the force he once was and ‘97 when Dayglo made that 8 shirt his own. Of course Cooke and Rowell b*llsed it up by trying to convert him into a test openside

In fairness he played most of his 12 caps either off the bench or starting at 8, think he did have a couple of games at 7, but they were more interested in ruining Ben Clarke by sticking him at openside (they even gave dayglo one game there as well ). The real victim was of course Neil Back, until SCW rocked up. Those were the days when the positional title in the back row had real meaning

True these days I think the fetcher is as likely to be a 6 as a 7 and it may even see a return to the openside being used as an extra back a la Michael Jones and Josh Kronfeld. Such a role may have suited Tom Croft much better too rather than trying to fit him into a 6 role at test level.

Croft was a fantastic 6. Just not a Jon Hall or Mike Teague or the archetype Richard Hill- who could play all three backrow positions when the number/title meant a lot more.

Do we think future generations of JNGFs 30-40 years down the line will be moaning about when Eddie Jones went off his rocker and put Tom Curry at 8? The move that sent English rugby off the rails for good.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 7:15 pm Do we think future generations of JNGFs 30-40 years down the line will be moaning about when Eddie Jones went off his rocker and put Tom Curry at 8? The move that sent English rugby off the rails for good.

I mean, the current generation of JNGFs does that, right now!

Puja

Well yes, I’m just wondering if it will stick in the craw the same way as Max Ojomoh’s dad wearing the wrong shirt back in the day.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:45 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:16 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:37 pm

In fairness he played most of his 12 caps either off the bench or starting at 8, think he did have a couple of games at 7, but they were more interested in ruining Ben Clarke by sticking him at openside (they even gave dayglo one game there as well ). The real victim was of course Neil Back, until SCW rocked up. Those were the days when the positional title in the back row had real meaning

True these days I think the fetcher is as likely to be a 6 as a 7 and it may even see a return to the openside being used as an extra back a la Michael Jones and Josh Kronfeld. Such a role may have suited Tom Croft much better too rather than trying to fit him into a 6 role at test level.

Croft was a fantastic 6. Just not a Jon Hall or Mike Teague or the archetype Richard Hill- who could play all three backrow positions when the number/title meant a lot more.

Hill had many qualities but he wasn’t a standout test 8

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 7:15 pm Do we think future generations of JNGFs 30-40 years down the line will be moaning about when Eddie Jones went off his rocker and put Tom Curry at 8? The move that sent English rugby off the rails for good.

Well to be honest moving Tom Curry to 8 objectively sucked (
not just my opinion or Stephen Jones’ - though he may have been in favour who knows? )

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:45 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:16 pm

True these days I think the fetcher is as likely to be a 6 as a 7 and it may even see a return to the openside being used as an extra back a la Michael Jones and Josh Kronfeld. Such a role may have suited Tom Croft much better too rather than trying to fit him into a 6 role at test level.

Croft was a fantastic 6. Just not a Jon Hall or Mike Teague or the archetype Richard Hill- who could play all three backrow positions when the number/title meant a lot more.

Hill had many qualities but he wasn’t a standout test 8

I dont believe I said he was but did a great job there in autumn 2002, when scw was giving dayglo a kick up the arse. World class 6 and 7, solid 8.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:01 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:45 pm

Croft was a fantastic 6. Just not a Jon Hall or Mike Teague or the archetype Richard Hill- who could play all three backrow positions when the number/title meant a lot more.

Hill had many qualities but he wasn’t a standout test 8

I dont believe I said he was but did a great job there in autumn 2002, when scw was giving dayglo a kick up the arse. World class 6 and 7, solid 8.

Croft, Hill, Dallaglio with Moody on the bench - the dream back row, IMO.

#justice4jonnymay

We really do need this 6 nations squad announcement.

Here's a couple of bits of news to get us moving (and stop me from joining in the best back row debate, cause my signature should make clear the player I think is missing there):

Phil Morrow is joining England after all as Head of Performance - he'll be leaving Saracens at the end of the season to go full-time with England, which is hugely preferable to the bodged job-share arrangement that they were trying to push in October. I'm worried it's going to be another excuse though - "We can't judge the BelatedWin regime on the 6N, cause El-Abd and Morrow weren't properly in place yet. Judge them on the AIs when they've had the full coaching team in place for long enough!" Hopefully this will at last bring an end to the resets and restarts though and we can finally have a settled camp up until 2027 at the earliest.

Joe Marler is appointed Performance Director for Team England Rugby (the new players' union that Itoje and Genge helped set up) and sees a chunk of his job around having arguments about player welfare and match limits when players don't feel able to raise them themselves: https://archive.ph/91KuF

This quote from the story was fairly telling:

When Telegraph Sport first raised the prospect of Itoje going over last season’s limit of 30 full game equivalents or 2,400 minutes, we were told this was a one-off because of the World Cup and that he would be carefully managed this season. Steve Borthwick also justified Itoje’s selection on the grounds that he was “desperate to play” as if any player would tell him “no thanks” to playing a Test for England.

Well here we are in January and Itoje has played in 15 games before a final Champions Cup round of pool games and Six Nations. Should he play in all those games, then theoretically he will only be able to play in nine further games for Saracens – who should be in the end-of-season play-off mix – and the British & Irish Lions. So neither a one-off nor particularly careful management.

Kudos then to Joe Marler for promising to hold both club and country to account in his new role as performance director for Team England Rugby. To be clear, Marler will have no official power to determine rest periods but at least he can give a voice to those players he says are “too scared” to approach their directors of rugby.

So glad Itoje played in two "important" games against Japan and in every conceivable opportunity for Saracens. He's going to be worn down, if not actively broken, before he even gets to the Lions tour.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:56 am Here's a couple of bits of news to get us moving (and stop me from joining in the best back row debate, cause my signature should make clear the player I think is missing there):

Phil Morrow is joining England after all as Head of Performance - he'll be leaving Saracens at the end of the season to go full-time with England, which is hugely preferable to the bodged job-share arrangement that they were trying to push in October. I'm worried it's going to be another excuse though - "We can't judge the BelatedWin regime on the 6N, cause El-Abd and Morrow weren't properly in place yet. Judge them on the AIs when they've had the full coaching team in place for long enough!" Hopefully this will at last bring an end to the resets and restarts though and we can finally have a settled camp up until 2027 at the earliest.

Joe Marler is appointed Performance Director for Team England Rugby (the new players' union that Itoje and Genge helped set up) and sees a chunk of his job around having arguments about player welfare and match limits when players don't feel able to raise them themselves: https://archive.ph/91KuF

This quote from the story was fairly telling:

When Telegraph Sport first raised the prospect of Itoje going over last season’s limit of 30 full game equivalents or 2,400 minutes, we were told this was a one-off because of the World Cup and that he would be carefully managed this season. Steve Borthwick also justified Itoje’s selection on the grounds that he was “desperate to play” as if any player would tell him “no thanks” to playing a Test for England.

Well here we are in January and Itoje has played in 15 games before a final Champions Cup round of pool games and Six Nations. Should he play in all those games, then theoretically he will only be able to play in nine further games for Saracens – who should be in the end-of-season play-off mix – and the British & Irish Lions. So neither a one-off nor particularly careful management.

Kudos then to Joe Marler for promising to hold both club and country to account in his new role as performance director for Team England Rugby. To be clear, Marler will have no official power to determine rest periods but at least he can give a voice to those players he says are “too scared” to approach their directors of rugby.

So glad Itoje played in two "important" games against Japan and in every conceivable opportunity for Saracens. He's going to be worn down, if not actively broken, before he even gets to the Lions tour.

Puja

Sarries injuries haven't helped with that mind. He's still being overplayed though, no doubt.

Yeah, Itoje seems unbeleivably durable but it really feels like we're trying to push that to the limit. If he breaks down pre-RWC it'll be a massive shame, but not wholly surprising.

Marler's appointment in that role seems curious at first, but he chatted about it on the Cole/Youngs thing and it actually makes a lot of sense in terms of his character. As an aside it's quite sad to hear him say there's only a handful of guys left in the Quins squad that he hasn't pissed off or alienated.

Also interesting to hear (from his perspective at least) of telling the coaches he simply wasn't up to it anymore and have both Borthwick and Wilson try to get him out for one last game. We should be ultra competitive. We should want to win every game, but, as with Itoje, when does that become short-sightedness?

SA are in a fairly unique position, but the way Rassie has built the depth in that squad is incredible. Rather than it looking like he has fielded weakened teams I find their rotation of players comes across as a show of power and confidence. I know it's early days for Borthwick, but I want to see more of this from Borthwick from the summer onwards, particularly with the inevitable Lions fallout.

Just as back-up to Itoje, I think Jonny Hill should be in the squad. He has always been a better player than the likes of Ewels, Isiekwe and Coles. Martin and Chessum are excellent as 2nd and 3rd choice locks but the next best is Hill.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:20 am Just as back-up to Itoje, I think Jonny Hill should be in the squad. He has always been a better player than the likes of Ewels, Isiekwe and Coles. Martin and Chessum are excellent as 2nd and 3rd choice locks but the next best is Hill.

From this time last year until December without playing a game though. I assume that's behind that decision, needs to get more game time under his belt.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:15 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:01 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:10 pm

Hill had many qualities but he wasn’t a standout test 8

I dont believe I said he was but did a great job there in autumn 2002, when scw was giving dayglo a kick up the arse. World class 6 and 7, solid 8.

Croft, Hill, Dallaglio with Moody on the bench - the dream back row, IMO.

I assume you mean with Croft at openside?

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:54 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:15 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:01 pm

I dont believe I said he was but did a great job there in autumn 2002, when scw was giving dayglo a kick up the arse. World class 6 and 7, solid 8.

Croft, Hill, Dallaglio with Moody on the bench - the dream back row, IMO.

I assume you mean with Croft at openside?

No. 6,7,8, 20 as listed.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:02 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:54 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:15 am

Croft, Hill, Dallaglio with Moody on the bench - the dream back row, IMO.

I assume you mean with Croft at openside?

No. 6,7,8, 20 as listed.

Not as good as Holy Trinity for me - leaves Hill having to do both openside and blindside close quarters work - in retrospect I feel England missed a trick by not converting Croft into a wing or outside centre. Think the way French use the 7 berth e.g.0livon or Woki ( before he moved to lock) would have suited Croft’s game to a tee.

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:46 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:02 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:54 pm

I assume you mean with Croft at openside?

No. 6,7,8, 20 as listed.

Not as good as Holy Trinity for me - leaves Hill having to do both openside and blindside close quarters work - in retrospect I feel England missed a trick by not converting Croft into a wing or outside centre. Think the way French use the 7 berth e.g.0livon or Woki ( before he moved to lock) would have suited Croft’s game to a tee.

good one, lets see if Mells bites

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:46 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:02 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:54 pm

I assume you mean with Croft at openside?

No. 6,7,8, 20 as listed.

Not as good as Holy Trinity for me - leaves Hill having to do both openside and blindside close quarters work - in retrospect I feel England missed a trick by not converting Croft into a wing or outside centre. Think the way French use the 7 berth e.g.0livon or Woki ( before he moved to lock) would have suited Croft’s game to a tee.

Ha, knew someone would roll back to the suggestion of Croft being better as a 13. One of the best lineout jumpers England ever produced and more than able of doing the dirty work but no one remembers that when the highlights reel shows him skinning fullbacks having made a break.

Back to er... current players. I see Pollock made the European team of the round. I don't know how heavily weighted towards tries it is, but 'Two tries, 18 tackles, and three turnovers won' is pretty impressive. He's a regular Tom Willis.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 8:57 am

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:46 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:02 pm

No. 6,7,8, 20 as listed.

Not as good as Holy Trinity for me - leaves Hill having to do both openside and blindside close quarters work - in retrospect I feel England missed a trick by not converting Croft into a wing or outside centre. Think the way French use the 7 berth e.g.0livon or Woki ( before he moved to lock) would have suited Croft’s game to a tee.

Ha, knew someone would roll back to the suggestion of Croft being better as a 13. One of the best lineout jumpers England ever produced and more than able of doing the dirty work but no one remembers that when the highlights reel shows him skinning fullbacks having made a break.

Still pi55es me off. I always thought that coaches were making a mistake when basically tasking Croft to stay out on the wing post lineouts and encouraging him to drift out there to both cover and capitialise on turnovers, when actually he was pretty good on the floor, and his acceleration really handy one or two out. Just deploying him as a normal back row would have seen him even more useful. As you say world class lineout, world class gas for a 6...only real minor flaw was his physique didn't lend itself to being an especially forceful tackler. Although multi capped and an excellent Lion, still think somewhat underrated and not well used player. Coaches didn't really know what to make of him tbh.