New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[jngf]

No. 6,7,8, 20 as listed.

Not as good as Holy Trinity for me - leaves Hill having to do both openside and blindside close quarters work - in retrospect I feel England missed a trick by not converting Croft into a wing or outside centre. Think the way French use the 7 berth e.g.0livon or Woki ( before he moved to lock) would have suited Croft’s game to a tee.

Ha, knew someone would roll back to the suggestion of Croft being better as a 13. One of the best lineout jumpers England ever produced and more than able of doing the dirty work but no one remembers that when the highlights reel shows him skinning fullbacks having made a break.

Actually don’t recall dirty work being remotely Croft’s forte - he left that for Haskell and Robshaw

[Banquo]

Not as good as Holy Trinity for me - leaves Hill having to do both openside and blindside close quarters work - in retrospect I feel England missed a trick by not converting Croft into a wing or outside centre. Think the way French use the 7 berth e.g.0livon or Woki ( before he moved to lock) would have suited Croft’s game to a tee.

Ha, knew someone would roll back to the suggestion of Croft being better as a 13. One of the best lineout jumpers England ever produced and more than able of doing the dirty work but no one remembers that when the highlights reel shows him skinning fullbacks having made a break.

Actually don’t recall dirty work being remotely Croft’s forte - he left that for Haskell and Robshaw

He didn't say forte, just that he was more than capable of it; as I said, successive coaches tasked him with duties that didn't really make the best use of him.

[Mikey Brown]

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[Banquo]

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[FKAS]

Ha, knew someone would roll back to the suggestion of Croft being better as a 13. One of the best lineout jumpers England ever produced and more than able of doing the dirty work but no one remembers that when the highlights reel shows him skinning fullbacks having made a break.

Actually don’t recall dirty work being remotely Croft’s forte - he left that for Haskell and Robshaw

He didn't say forte, just that he was more than capable of it; as I said, successive coaches tasked him with duties that didn't really make the best use of him.

Correct. Ian McGeechan said he didn't originally pick Croft because he wasn't sure about his ability to mix it in the tight with South Africa but actually he did everything he asked of him and played well.

[Banquo]

Actually don’t recall dirty work being remotely Croft’s forte - he left that for Haskell and Robshaw

He didn't say forte, just that he was more than capable of it; as I said, successive coaches tasked him with duties that didn't really make the best use of him.

Correct. Ian McGeechan said he didn't originally pick Croft because he wasn't sure about his ability to mix it in the tight with South Africa but actually he did everything he asked of him and played well.

aye. He played 7 for Tigers a few times iirc and looked ok, despite the physique being tricky for an authentic openside in those days:). Great player.

[FKAS]

He didn't say forte, just that he was more than capable of it; as I said, successive coaches tasked him with duties that didn't really make the best use of him.

Correct. Ian McGeechan said he didn't originally pick Croft because he wasn't sure about his ability to mix it in the tight with South Africa but actually he did everything he asked of him and played well.

aye. He played 7 for Tigers a few times iirc and looked ok, despite the physique being tricky for an authentic openside in those days:). Great player.

Think he played 7 in the season we had McCaffery playing 8, McCaffery being a converted 7 himself so bit of a hybrid backrow thing going on. Was the start of the Mike Williams and Fitzgerald at 6, the herald of dark times at Tigers.

[FKAS]

Fergus Burke in the Scotland squad so rules himself out of England contention. If he gets capped he won't be EQ anymore and won't count towards the quota for Sarries.

[Scrumhead]

That was obviously going to happen. The Scots will cap anyone with even the slightest link to Scotland

If we had any plans to look at him he should have been in the last A squad.

We could probably do with another 10 coming through to gradually replace Ford but I’d prefer it wasn’t an import.

[Mikey Brown]

Fergus Burke in the Scotland squad so rules himself out of England contention. If he gets capped he won't be EQ anymore and won't count towards the quota for Sarries.

No real interest in him as a Scotland player but that part is a small win at least.

[Captainhaircut]

Genuinely don’t know how a nation that claims to be so proud can support that Scotland side. Regular occurrence that around half the 23 aren't really Scottish. A lot of players who qualified on residency or some grandparent. Loads of them have never even played in Scotland and some leave Scotland as soon as they qualify for them like Van der Merwe and Gordon.

I often wonder how the team talk goes pre the game against England. Full on braveheart about how much they hate England with about a third of the squad being English.

[Slater582]

That was obviously going to happen. The Scots will cap anyone with even the slightest link to Scotland

If we had any plans to look at him he should have been in the last A squad.

We could probably do with another 10 coming through to gradually replace Ford but I’d prefer it wasn’t an import.

Townsend confirmed they have been monitoring Burke for a few years and made contact in the summer. Scotland considered selecting him in the Autumn but decided he needed more appearances for Saracens.

Not sure if Borthwick offered an 'A' opportunity but doesn't seem like England had much of a chance. Despite Burke having an English parent rather than just one grandparent...and actually living in London.

Genuinely don’t know how a nation that claims to be so proud can support that Scotland side. Regular occurrence that around half the 23 aren't really Scottish. A lot of players who qualified on residency or some grandparent. Loads of them have never even played in Scotland and some leave Scotland as soon as they qualify for them like Van der Merwe and Gordon.

Or Tom Jordan, still an English qualified player when Premiership clubs tried to sign him last year. Declined those offers, finished his residency qualification, debut for Scotland on 2 November, confirmation of transfer to Bristol on 18 November.

[Puja]

I mean, if you're Burke and you've got no particular emotional feeling for either England or Scotland, you'd have to pick Scotland every time. Quite apart from them being higher in the rankings than us, he's got a 32 year old injury-prone Russell and an unproven (and positionally-flexible) Jordan to get past, as opposed to England, where outlasting 32 year old injury-prone Ford would still only get him to third choice.

Genuinely don’t know how a nation that claims to be so proud can support that Scotland side. Regular occurrence that around half the 23 aren't really Scottish. A lot of players who qualified on residency or some grandparent. Loads of them have never even played in Scotland and some leave Scotland as soon as they qualify for them like Van der Merwe and Gordon.

Or Tom Jordan, still an English qualified player when Premiership clubs tried to sign him last year. Declined those offers, finished his residency qualification, debut for Scotland on 2 November, confirmation of transfer to Bristol on 18 November.

It's those ones that irk me really. I can absolutely buy qualifying on residency as a concept - Mouritz Botha back in the day came to England to play semi-pro for Bedford and work a job alongside, then ended up having a sudden late blossom - I've got problems with believing that he feels this is his second home and that, even though he's now gone back to SA after retirement, he felt a genuine tie. Same with Meaufou for France - French rugby gave him a chance, gave him his breakthrough, I can understand him feeling it's a home of his. Having plans in place to emigrate before you've even earned your first cap doesn't feel great. Wonder what he'd've done if he'd got injured in training the day before the game and ruled out for the international season?

Mind, having said that, I just looked him up on Wikipedia (having not even been aware that he was ever EQP) and it looks like he went from amateur rugby in NZ to playing semi-pro for Ayrshire in the Super 6, so it's not like he's come over as a professional to be a project player.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Tom Gordon the flanker at Newcastle who came to Scotland as an 18 year old and never won a Scotland cap?

Or do you mean Tom Jordan who came over at 20 and worked his way up with Ayrshire Bulls? It does feel a bit weird he is leaving immediately, but "it's a short career" (as we love to say on here) and Glasgow have to prioritise their resources to have any hope of bringing through 'real' Scottish players.

Duhan Van der Merwe is a funny one. Yes, he is basically a mercenary, but also he was a perma-crocked what-could-have-been player in France before the Scottish rugby system developed him in to whatever he is now. Jack Dempsey is another slightly ridiculous example, yet I've no real problem with (for example) Fekitoa playing for Tonga and making them more of a force.

I'm just not convinced the situation in England is that different, and it's hard to separate the money and resources of a country from it's ability to produce talent. If you were removing everyone whose families in a previous generation moved for money, prosperity and a better life in England, I think it would be significant. Picking apart the 'authentic' nationalities of the SANZAR players wouldn't be particularly easy either, I don't think.

On one hand I know what you mean, there are alarmingly few Scottish accents among the current Scotland squad, but a lot of the familial links also get dismissed because they've got 'funny' names like Tuipulotu. If Sotutu and Van Rensburg are playing for England in a year or two will you stop supporting them? It's all a bit arbitrary.

While we're at it, might as well let Scotland have Bevan Rodd back.

[Mikey Brown]

Wrote all that and didn't hit send for an hour or two, so I think I'm repeating some things that have already been mentioned.

Also anyone called Cameron automatically gets a pass.

[Mellsblue]

I mean, if you're Burke and you've got no particular emotional feeling for either England or Scotland, you'd have to pick Scotland every time. Quite apart from them being higher in the rankings than us, he's got a 32 year old injury-prone Russell and an unproven (and positionally-flexible) Jordan to get past, as opposed to England, where outlasting 32 year old injury-prone Ford would still only get him to third choice.

Genuinely don’t know how a nation that claims to be so proud can support that Scotland side. Regular occurrence that around half the 23 aren't really Scottish. A lot of players who qualified on residency or some grandparent. Loads of them have never even played in Scotland and some leave Scotland as soon as they qualify for them like Van der Merwe and Gordon.

Or Tom Jordan, still an English qualified player when Premiership clubs tried to sign him last year. Declined those offers, finished his residency qualification, debut for Scotland on 2 November, confirmation of transfer to Bristol on 18 November.

It's those ones that irk me really. I can absolutely buy qualifying on residency as a concept - Mouritz Botha back in the day came to England to play semi-pro for Bedford and work a job alongside, then ended up having a sudden late blossom - I've got problems with believing that he feels this is his second home and that, even though he's now gone back to SA after retirement, he felt a genuine tie. Same with Meaufou for France - French rugby gave him a chance, gave him his breakthrough, I can understand him feeling it's a home of his. Having plans in place to emigrate before you've even earned your first cap doesn't feel great. Wonder what he'd've done if he'd got injured in training the day before the game and ruled out for the international season?

Mind, having said that, I just looked him up on Wikipedia (having not even been aware that he was ever EQP) and it looks like he went from amateur rugby in NZ to playing semi-pro for Ayrshire in the Super 6, so it's not like he's come over as a professional to be a project player.

Puja

Re Mouritz Botha (and pedantry), he came to England to play amateur rugby for, the now infamous, Bedford Ath, a job in a carpet factory (iirc) and free lodgings with my mate’s parents. Im not 100% certain but I think he is currently coaching at Sarries Women and Bedford School. All round legend by all accounts. Only ‘met’ him once and all I remember is seeing a mountain of a man, topped by a mountain of blond hair, wander through the kitchen, as I ate a bacon sandwich in the hope it would take the edge of my hangover, to grab a bacon sandwich in the hope it would take the edge off his hangover. If that doesn’t make him English then I don’t know what does.
He obvs tells a similar story when asked about me.

[Mr Mwenda]

There's no perfect system, if there are "mercenaries" playing for Scotland or other places that's their issue and largely on individual players' and selectors' consciences in my opinion. Who are we to judge what people feel? It's a job at the end of the day and feelings and commitments change during their lives. For me it is better to be fairly generous and let people have complicated identities and loyalties than to force everybody to just have one from birth.

[Captainhaircut]

There's no perfect system, if there are "mercenaries" playing for Scotland or other places that's their issue and largely on individual players' and selectors' consciences in my opinion. Who are we to judge what people feel? It's a job at the end of the day and feelings and commitments change during their lives. For me it is better to be fairly generous and let people have complicated identities and loyalties than to force everybody to just have one from birth.

I get complex ancestry but would like to see players not have their cake and eat it. You can’t talk about feeling strongly Scottish and then never play in that country. I think a system whereby players qualifying due to parentage/grandparentage should have to play some time in that country to quality. Maybe 2 years instead of the 5 for pure residency. So someone like Ewan Ashman would qualify soon but someone like a Ben White or Fergus Burke who talk about being proud Scots but never make any commitment to play there, don’t.

As it is, Scotland just get to use primarily England as a further academy and our clubs (funded by a bigger than ever EPS agreement) pay for these players.

We should really have pushed harder to for less non English qualified players in squads which might make the clubs actually take a stand on this one.

[Mr Mwenda]

There's no perfect system, if there are "mercenaries" playing for Scotland or other places that's their issue and largely on individual players' and selectors' consciences in my opinion. Who are we to judge what people feel? It's a job at the end of the day and feelings and commitments change during their lives. For me it is better to be fairly generous and let people have complicated identities and loyalties than to force everybody to just have one from birth.

I get complex ancestry but would like to see players not have their cake and eat it. You can’t talk about feeling strongly Scottish and then never play in that country. I think a system whereby players qualifying due to parentage/grandparentage should have to play some time in that country to quality. Maybe 2 years instead of the 5 for pure residency. So someone like Ewan Ashman would qualify soon but someone like a Ben White or Fergus Burke who talk about being proud Scots but never make any commitment to play there, don’t.

As it is, Scotland just get to use primarily England as a further academy and our clubs (funded by a bigger than ever EPS agreement) pay for these players.

We should really have pushed harder to for less non English qualified players in squads which might make the clubs actually take a stand on this one.

Fair enough. I guess I prefer to be more generous than that (and am suspicious of calls for immigrants to prove loyalty or commitment) because of my own familial circumstances. So we can agree to differ. However, I think that some of the issues you are reacting to are caused by the English system. There's nothing stopping England calling up people with English ancestry from e.g. Ireland or new Zealand. However we have decided that that isn't in our interests so we don't, so it isn't actually unjust. I would be interested to know how aspiring Scotland players in Scotland feel. I wouldn't be surprised if drafting in "foreigners" fosters resentment in some corners. That may be a problem longer term if results drop off.

[Puja]

I mean, if you're Burke and you've got no particular emotional feeling for either England or Scotland, you'd have to pick Scotland every time. Quite apart from them being higher in the rankings than us, he's got a 32 year old injury-prone Russell and an unproven (and positionally-flexible) Jordan to get past, as opposed to England, where outlasting 32 year old injury-prone Ford would still only get him to third choice.

Or Tom Jordan, still an English qualified player when Premiership clubs tried to sign him last year. Declined those offers, finished his residency qualification, debut for Scotland on 2 November, confirmation of transfer to Bristol on 18 November.

It's those ones that irk me really. I can absolutely buy qualifying on residency as a concept - Mouritz Botha back in the day came to England to play semi-pro for Bedford and work a job alongside, then ended up having a sudden late blossom - I've got problems with believing that he feels this is his second home and that, even though he's now gone back to SA after retirement, he felt a genuine tie. Same with Meaufou for France - French rugby gave him a chance, gave him his breakthrough, I can understand him feeling it's a home of his. Having plans in place to emigrate before you've even earned your first cap doesn't feel great. Wonder what he'd've done if he'd got injured in training the day before the game and ruled out for the international season?

Mind, having said that, I just looked him up on Wikipedia (having not even been aware that he was ever EQP) and it looks like he went from amateur rugby in NZ to playing semi-pro for Ayrshire in the Super 6, so it's not like he's come over as a professional to be a project player.

Puja

Re Mouritz Botha (and pedantry), he came to England to play amateur rugby for, the now infamous, Bedford Ath, a job in a carpet factory (iirc) and free lodgings with my mate’s parents. Im not 100% certain but I think he is currently coaching at Sarries Women and Bedford School. All round legend by all accounts. Only ‘met’ him once and all I remember is seeing a mountain of a man, topped by a mountain of blond hair, wander through the kitchen, as I ate a bacon sandwich in the hope it would take the edge of my hangover, to grab a bacon sandwich in the hope it would take the edge off his hangover. If that doesn’t make him English then I don’t know what does.
He obvs tells a similar story when asked about me.

I stand corrected (on several accounts!) - had thought he'd retired to SA, but a google tells me you are absolutely correct. Always struck me as a decent bloke, so nice to have confirmation.

There's no perfect system, if there are "mercenaries" playing for Scotland or other places that's their issue and largely on individual players' and selectors' consciences in my opinion. Who are we to judge what people feel? It's a job at the end of the day and feelings and commitments change during their lives. For me it is better to be fairly generous and let people have complicated identities and loyalties than to force everybody to just have one from birth.

Yeah, that's more than fair. I'd have the rules tighter myself (maybe have it so that grandparents only get you a deduction on residency rather than automatic qualification), but there's no perfect answer. I'm just glad they changed the residency qualification so that it lasted longer than a standard club contract - that was my main bugbear.

Puja

[Cameo]

I've always thought the main issue was players changing allegiance. If you have always wanted to play for Scotland because your great uncle told you you were Scottish and gave you a kilt then I'm fine with you playing even if you don't have any close links. If you have tried playing for your preferred country, given up and then shopped around for somewhere that'll take you, I'm a bit more dubious that the rules should allow it (not blaming players for doing it under the current rules or countries from taking advantage of them, it's the rules I'm talking about).

I'd favour a rule that was very relaxed about birthplace or ancestry but just provided that every player has to choose at, say, 23 or when signing their first professional contract (whichever is later) what country they want to make themselves eligible for. Not sure how practical that would be, but might avoid all this poaching chat apart from for the real early developers who mainly have their pick anyway.

I think that strikes a fair balance between not making international rugby too mercenary (/keeping the idea of players playing for the team they love) while making some allowance for the complications of life and allegiance. Lots of players would have tricky decisions to make where they have split loyalties but I think I can live with that.

In that scenario, a player like Botha (or Nathan Hines or even Tom Jordan at a bit more of a stretch) is okay as they moved and made a new home before their first professional contract and the idea of playing international rugby really took hold, but someone like Jack Dempsey (or Rikki Flutey or Brad Shields) is not. I like Dempsey but him playing for Scotland makes a bit of a mockery of the international game.

I wouldn't be in favour of the suggestion above about providing that everyone had to have played in the country they want to play for. The finances of rugby just don't allow that in lots of cases. It also goes too far in implying that sporting allegiance equates to a sense of national superioty. I don't think you have to believe that Scotland is the greatest country in the world or the best country for you and your family to live in to be proud of playing for them. Taking Fergus Burke. I'm not sure he should be qualified for Scotland, I don't know him but haven't heard anything suggesting he had a great desire to play for Scotland before it became his best option. However, if that had in fact been his dream all along, I am not sure what would be proved by forcing him to take a lower offer to join a Scottish club if he wanted to achieve that dream.

Samoa and Tonga make this all a bit tricky. It's great for rugby when they are competitive, but in reality that generally relies on a bulk of kiwis with island heritage. The connection is definitely real so it doesn't feel wrong that they are playing even if the All Blacks was their first choice, but changing the rules to allow for switching there allows situations like Dempsey. Of course there have been plenty of players who were Tongan or Samoan first and foremost playing for NZ but many of them moved at a very young age (they'd definitely be caught out by the rule suggested above). No easy solution there - it's tricky with tiny islands with huge first, second and third generation expat communities - but it does raise a weakness in my proposed rule.

It's all just tricky.

[Oakboy]

I've always thought the main issue was players changing allegiance. If you have always wanted to play for Scotland because your great uncle told you you were Scottish and gave you a kilt then I'm fine with you playing even if you don't have any close links. If you have tried playing for your preferred country, given up and then shopped around for somewhere that'll take you, I'm a bit more dubious that the rules should allow it (not blaming players for doing it under the current rules or countries from taking advantage of them, it's the rules I'm talking about).

I'd favour a rule that was very relaxed about birthplace or ancestry but just provided that every player has to choose at, say, 23 or when signing their first professional contract (whichever is later) what country they want to make themselves eligible for. Not sure how practical that would be, but might avoid all this poaching chat apart from for the real early developers who mainly have their pick anyway.

I think that strikes a fair balance between not making international rugby too mercenary (/keeping the idea of players playing for the team they love) while making some allowance for the complications of life and allegiance. Lots of players would have tricky decisions to make where they have split loyalties but I think I can live with that.

In that scenario, a player like Botha (or Nathan Hines or even Tom Jordan at a bit more of a stretch) is okay as they moved and made a new home before their first professional contract and the idea of playing international rugby really took hold, but someone like Jack Dempsey (or Rikki Flutey or Brad Shields) is not. I like Dempsey but him playing for Scotland makes a bit of a mockery of the international game.

I wouldn't be in favour of the suggestion above about providing that everyone had to have played in the country they want to play for. The finances of rugby just don't allow that in lots of cases. It also goes too far in implying that sporting allegiance equates to a sense of national superioty. I don't think you have to believe that Scotland is the greatest country in the world or the best country for you and your family to live in to be proud of playing for them. Taking Fergus Burke. I'm not sure he should be qualified for Scotland, I don't know him but haven't heard anything suggesting he had a great desire to play for Scotland before it became his best option. However, if that had in fact been his dream all along, I am not sure what would be proved by forcing him to take a lower offer to join a Scottish club if he wanted to achieve that dream.

Samoa and Tonga make this all a bit tricky. It's great for rugby when they are competitive, but in reality that generally relies on a bulk of kiwis with island heritage. The connection is definitely real so it doesn't feel wrong that they are playing even if the All Blacks was their first choice, but changing the rules to allow for switching there allows situations like Dempsey. Of course there have been plenty of players who were Tongan or Samoan first and foremost playing for NZ but many of them moved at a very young age (they'd definitely be caught out by the rule suggested above). No easy solution there - it's tricky with tiny islands with huge first, second and third generation expat communities - but it does raise a weakness in my proposed rule.

It's all just tricky.

I like the suggestion in your second paragraph though don't you mean 23 or when signing a professional contract whichever is EARLIER? A 19 year old can be good enough for international rugby, for example.

[Captainhaircut]

There’s clearly not a simple answer. The crux of the problem for me though is that I want to see the sides that are successful at international level be a representation of the hard work that country has put in to develop players.

If Scotland won the six nations ahead of Ireland and France, would that be because the SRU had done better than them at developing players, building pathways etc? It wouldn’t- it would be because DVDM, Gordon, tuipulotu, White, Dempsey, Bayliss, Schoeman etc all just decided they were Scottish one day.

I think someone said earlier, it would be interesting to see the reaction of their fans if they weren’t doing well. I guess most fans just want to cheer on a team that wins regardless.

[Which Tyler]

The trouble with not allowing players to switch nationalities, is that that's an excellent way of getting rugby thrown out of the olympics - which... would be a very bad thing

[Oakboy]

Are we talking only about fringe players in the main? Have many 1st choice Lions XV players had dubious international backgrounds, for example?