New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Danno]

Sorry MB, I thought I was being pretty innocuous

[Spiffy]

No Sale v Toulon thread. Just saw Ben Curry’s try. Can’t remember who it was questioning it when I mentioned him having an incredible attacking skillset a while back, but check that one out.

Is his form outstanding enough to give him a nudge into the 23 or has he underwhelmed too much in previous appearances?

I think that rather too much is made of rare moments of "skill" by commentators and punters. Being a professional rugby player is a full time job. These guys spend every day developing their fitness and skills. Is it all that amazing if a forward drops the ball on to his toe, hacks it ahead and scores a try? This is something I would expect to see from any decent player. But commentators describe it as an incredible bit of skill, and an event right up there with the second coming of Christ. What I can't really believe is the opposite - how lacking in real rugby skills is the current average professional player. Look at the overall standard of passing for just one basic aspect. Head high, knee high, forward, poorly weighted, etc. Good passing should be the norm, not the exception. These players could learn a lot from the Welsh amateurs of the 1970s.

[fivepointer]

No Sale v Toulon thread. Just saw Ben Curry’s try. Can’t remember who it was questioning it when I mentioned him having an incredible attacking skillset a while back, but check that one out.

Is his form outstanding enough to give him a nudge into the 23 or has he underwhelmed too much in previous appearances?

I think that rather too much is made of rare moments of "skill" by commentators and punters. Being a professional rugby player is a full time job. These guys spend every day developing their fitness and skills. Is it all that amazing if a forward drops the ball on to his toe, hacks it ahead and scores a try? This is something I would expect to see from any decent player. But commentators describe it as an incredible bit of skill, and an event right up there with the second coming of Christ. What I can't really believe is the opposite - how lacking in real rugby skills is the current average professional player. Look at the overall standard of passing for just one basic aspect. Head high, knee high, forward, poorly weighted, etc. Good passing should be the norm, not the exception. These players could learn a lot from the Welsh amateurs of the 1970s.

The skill levels in the game are infinitely better than they ever have been.

Welsh amateurs werent subjected to anything like the pressure that modern players face.

[Mikey Brown]

No Sale v Toulon thread. Just saw Ben Curry’s try. Can’t remember who it was questioning it when I mentioned him having an incredible attacking skillset a while back, but check that one out.

Is his form outstanding enough to give him a nudge into the 23 or has he underwhelmed too much in previous appearances?

I think that rather too much is made of rare moments of "skill" by commentators and punters. Being a professional rugby player is a full time job. These guys spend every day developing their fitness and skills. Is it all that amazing if a forward drops the ball on to his toe, hacks it ahead and scores a try? This is something I would expect to see from any decent player. But commentators describe it as an incredible bit of skill, and an event right up there with the second coming of Christ. What I can't really believe is the opposite - how lacking in real rugby skills is the current average professional player. Look at the overall standard of passing for just one basic aspect. Head high, knee high, forward, poorly weighted, etc. Good passing should be the norm, not the exception. These players could learn a lot from the Welsh amateurs of the 1970s.

I didn’t catch the Christ bit, agreed that’s pretty OTT.

I think the issue with every player being a perfect passer, kicker, attacker, defender etc (at least anywhere near the standards of our elite members on here) is that there’s other people out there trying really hard to stop them.

I could probably go out in my garden and do a pretty good approximation of Ben Curry's little grubber and chase 8 times out of 10.

I’m not saying it’s completely mind blowing that he’s done it in a big European game, but it reminded me of some interaction on here where they were surprised I noted him as skilful. I’m not using this single moment as proof he is top quality.

He has some of these skills in his locker which are probably a little outside his core duties (which he’s also excelling at) as a forward, and it’s cool to see at somewhere near the top level. That’s all really.

[Spiffy]

No Sale v Toulon thread. Just saw Ben Curry’s try. Can’t remember who it was questioning it when I mentioned him having an incredible attacking skillset a while back, but check that one out.

Is his form outstanding enough to give him a nudge into the 23 or has he underwhelmed too much in previous appearances?

I think that rather too much is made of rare moments of "skill" by commentators and punters. Being a professional rugby player is a full time job. These guys spend every day developing their fitness and skills. Is it all that amazing if a forward drops the ball on to his toe, hacks it ahead and scores a try? This is something I would expect to see from any decent player. But commentators describe it as an incredible bit of skill, and an event right up there with the second coming of Christ. What I can't really believe is the opposite - how lacking in real rugby skills is the current average professional player. Look at the overall standard of passing for just one basic aspect. Head high, knee high, forward, poorly weighted, etc. Good passing should be the norm, not the exception. These players could learn a lot from the Welsh amateurs of the 1970s.

The skill levels in the game are infinitely better than they ever have been.

Welsh amateurs werent subjected to anything like the pressure that modern players face.

Yes. And that is the stock answer. Of course there are some skillful players out there, but a hell of a lot more who are obviously deficient in the basics. It may be to do with emphasis on training in the gym over training with the ball.
Only reporting what I see - a large number of misdirected passes, forward passes, poorly-timed passes, no-look passes, passes directly into touch etc.. At the top level, a good pass should be the norm, and not the subject of gushing praise as something special. I am tired of hearing commentators go on about amazing skills when usually they are not amazing at all, just the nuts and bolts of decent rugby.. (They may look amazing compared with all the sloppy stuff that goes on.)

[fivepointer]

I think that rather too much is made of rare moments of "skill" by commentators and punters. Being a professional rugby player is a full time job. These guys spend every day developing their fitness and skills. Is it all that amazing if a forward drops the ball on to his toe, hacks it ahead and scores a try? This is something I would expect to see from any decent player. But commentators describe it as an incredible bit of skill, and an event right up there with the second coming of Christ. What I can't really believe is the opposite - how lacking in real rugby skills is the current average professional player. Look at the overall standard of passing for just one basic aspect. Head high, knee high, forward, poorly weighted, etc. Good passing should be the norm, not the exception. These players could learn a lot from the Welsh amateurs of the 1970s.

The skill levels in the game are infinitely better than they ever have been.

Welsh amateurs werent subjected to anything like the pressure that modern players face.

Yes. And that is the stock answer. Of course there are some skillful players out there, but a hell of a lot more who are obviously deficient in the basics. It may be to do with emphasis on training in the gym over training with the ball.
Only reporting what I see - a large number of misdirected passes, forward passes, poorly-timed passes, no-look passes, passes directly into touch etc.. At the top level, a good pass should be the norm, and not the subject of gushing praise as something special. I am tired of hearing commentators go on about amazing skills when usually they are not amazing at all, just the nuts and bolts of decent rugby.. (They may look amazing compared with all the sloppy stuff that goes on.)

And I see the ball being moved around with a finesse and accuracy from 1-15 players at times that would have been unthinkable 20-30 years ago. The skills in forwards have risen dramatically. The ability to play long passes and offload out of tackles has developed enormously.
Its not just passing. The developments around the breakdown, kicking, tackling, mauling and set piece play are light years from what we had years ago.

[Which Tyler]

Yes. And that is the stock answer.

There's a reason for this.

[TheNomad]

Just as a point of interest, the following players have been voted into (as it stands) the Top 14 team of the season

Manu Tuilagi - think we would have needed to move on anyway, given injuries
Mako Vunipola - similarly, we would have moved on anyway
David Ribbans - he's a shame, for me. I'd have liked him to be in the squad. Definitely good enough
Jack Willis - no surprise. A back three including both Willis brothers would be some prospect

[Cameo]

Yes. And that is the stock answer.

There's a reason for this.

In addition, I'm not sure I buy the premise that skills in the 80s look better. Yes, everything was slower and less pressurised, but even with that the skills don't look better to me. Fair enough if you watch clips of flowing moves, but if you watch a full game there are so many drops and bad passes. Some games had 50 scrums.

[Oakboy]

Yes. And that is the stock answer.

There's a reason for this.

In addition, I'm not sure I buy the premise that skills in the 80s look better. Yes, everything was slower and less pressurised, but even with that the skills don't look better to me. Fair enough if you watch clips of flowing moves, but if you watch a full game there are so many drops and bad passes. Some games had 50 scrums.

Rugby involves mistakes. Back then they occurred more frequently. Now, the laws are adjusted to produce them and tactics include kick-fests to wait for them.

The word 'breakdown' has taken over from 'ruck'. Of course, we now see smash-and-grab jackalling rather than rucking with studs.

The most noticeable change from old film to current video is probably how the scrums formed casually, a row at a time, and only pushed once the ball was fed in. (That and the glorious punch-ups wnen a prop kissed his opponent (or something).)

[Slater582]

Felix Jones has been officially released from his contract. Something went really stinky there.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2024/121 ... um=bluesky

Seems Aled Walters leaving contributed to his departure.

There was also a defence of the continuing turnover of England coaches, which has continued from the Jones era into Borthwick’s tenure with the departures of Aled Walters and Felix Jones.

Walters, the conditioning expert who joined Ireland in the summer following England’s 2-0 series loss to New Zealand, is set for a role on the British and Irish Lions tour of Australia.

Jones, meanwhile, resigned as defence coach, leading to the appointment of Joe El-Abd on a job-share agreement with Oyonnax in the French second division.

“I don’t think it was shambolic,” Sweeney said. “I can give you very good reasons why. You can’t legislate someone’s personal freedom, personal choice in terms of what they want to do. Did we think Aled Walters was going to go? No. Did we think Felix Jones was going to go? No.

“We thought they were going to stay longer. You know the relationship between Aled and Felix have – it goes back to Munster, South Africa, it comes to here. You know the family situations of them. Aled took a personal decision to go to Ireland when Jason Cowman [Walters’ predecessor at the IRFU] resigned. The speculation is that Felix was influenced by that, and chose to leave.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Sweeney just casually ignoring the Tom Tombleson sized elephant in the room.

[Banquo]

Sweeney just casually ignoring the Tom Tombleson sized elephant in the room.

what was the story there btw?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Sweeney just casually ignoring the Tom Tombleson sized elephant in the room.

what was the story there btw?

Tom was hugely popular with the squad and also with Aled. Sweaty Ballsack binned him off which really pissed Aled off and undermined him and he was gone a week later. The backdrop to that is treatment of staff in general.

[Banquo]

Sweeney just casually ignoring the Tom Tombleson sized elephant in the room.

what was the story there btw?

Tom was hugely popular with the squad and also with Aled. Sweaty Ballsack binned him off which really pissed Aled off and undermined him and he was gone a week later. The backdrop to that is treatment of staff in general.

that's on Stonking Ballsup then I guess. Mind, being popular with the squad isn't necessarily the same as being any good.

[Tom Moore]

what was the story there btw?

Tom was hugely popular with the squad and also with Aled. Sweaty Ballsack binned him off which really pissed Aled off and undermined him and he was gone a week later. The backdrop to that is treatment of staff in general.

that's on Stonking Ballsup then I guess. Mind, being popular with the squad isn't necessarily the same as being any good.

Even if he wasn't great (haven't read anything to suggest he wasn't, to be clear) if the payoff for him leaving was effectively the loss of Walters and Jones, it probably wasn't worth it.

[FKAS]

Tom was hugely popular with the squad and also with Aled. Sweaty Ballsack binned him off which really pissed Aled off and undermined him and he was gone a week later. The backdrop to that is treatment of staff in general.

that's on Stonking Ballsup then I guess. Mind, being popular with the squad isn't necessarily the same as being any good.

Even if he wasn't great (haven't read anything to suggest he wasn't, to be clear) if the payoff for him leaving was effectively the loss of Walters and Jones, it probably wasn't worth it.

Walters was offered a job with Ireland before Tombleson left. His wife is Irish and Walters spent time living there previously. It was a chance to get back closer to family as well as being offered a wedge and unfiltered access to the players by Ireland.

[SixAndAHalf]

Optimistic video on England - aligned to the points above it shows how much of a loss Jones / Walters were. Understanding the reasons for that would heavily impact how I view Borthwick.

[Captainhaircut]

Wasn’t sure where to put this but interesting line on Alex Groves in the Sale team announce. He was excellent at under 20 level, seemed to fall out with Bristol and then disappeared after moving to Sale. This would explain why.

Still only 24 and with Jonny Hill off to France, there could be a pathway to some game time at Sale. He’s a very big unit and certainly played to his size at under 20 level.

“After scoring on his Sharks debut, England U20s Ollie Davies starts his first home game, while lock Alex Groves features in a Sale XV for the first time since undergoing open heart surgery in February 2024. Read more about Alex’s return to fitness in our matchday programme. “

[Mellsblue]

Blimey. Well done, Alex Groves. Love stories like this.

[Banquo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

[Oakboy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

[fivepointer]

Im sure something virtually identical happened before to an England player but i cannot recall who it was.

I guess they thought the rehab option was viable so decided to go down that route. Not sure if anyone is to blame. Its just a decision that hasnt worked out as they hoped it would.

[Puja]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Someone posted a 'thanks Obama' meme of someone burning their toast the other day, I imagine that's sort of how Oakboy's daily life goes but with Borthwick in his place.