Page 59 of 232
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:09 am
by Digby
They may not have a choice on the employment front with the purge or non Corbyn backing candidates throughout the party, which is a fight Momentum wouldn't have needed to have, but if they didn’t have a political variant of tourette's they wouldn't be Momentum
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:43 am
by Zhivago
Sandydragon wrote:Labour has always been made up of different groupings, but I can’t remember a period when they were so badly split. The 80s might have been a bit like this. But neither side wants to to give up on the constituency organisations, without whom getting elected is blydi difficult.
I think many labour MPs are uncomfortable. But they will hold their noses and hope it all gets better rather than risk their employment and future prospects. Some will depart through principle, but most likely those who are on the way out anyway or who have such strong personal appeal that they can get re-elected as independents.
On another note, it’s a bit rich for the current labour leadership to discipline MPs for not following the party line when Corbyn was a serial revel against previous leaderships.
Corbyn almost always rebelled against both Labour and tories, unlike these idiots who vote with the tories propping them up.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:50 am
by Sandydragon
Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:54 am
by Sandydragon
Digby wrote:They may not have a choice on the employment front with the purge or non Corbyn backing candidates throughout the party, which is a fight Momentum wouldn't have needed to have, but if they didn’t have a political variant of tourette's they wouldn't be Momentum
Momentum is the lefts version of dog whistle politics. Lots of noise and no compromise. It’s cant play well with others, it’s part of their DNA.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:17 am
by Mellsblue
It seems Diggers is some sort of soothsayer:
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:18 am
by Mellsblue
Looking beyond the top two, that just makes for good reading across the board.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:17 am
by Zhivago
Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 am
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Would you have felt that way if de/reselection had taken place under Blair?
More to the point, isn’t it illuminating that it didn’t.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:15 am
by Digby
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Would you have felt that way if de/reselection had taken place under Blair?
More to the point, isn’t it illuminating that it didn’t.
I like the idea a small group of lunatic agitators working to purify the party in the image of the Glorious Leader is anyone's ide of democracy
Though there is if one million sane people could be asked to join the Labour party we could put a stop to this nonsense
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:37 pm
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Would you have felt that way if de/reselection had taken place under Blair?
More to the point, isn’t it illuminating that it didn’t.
you sure about that?
e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 999733.stm
meanwhile the Labour leadership have spoken out against mandatory reselection, McDonnell just the other day on TV said the current system with trigger ballots is fine.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:59 pm
by Which Tyler
Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
I have no skin in this game, but...
To be a hypocrite, wouldn't he have had to have been disciplined for rebelling AND said that the discipline was unfair / shouldn't have happened?
NB: I have absolutely no idea if he objected to being disciplined, or accepted it as the price to pay for rebellion.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:00 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Would you have felt that way if de/reselection had taken place under Blair?
More to the point, isn’t it illuminating that it didn’t.
you sure about that?
e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 999733.stm
meanwhile the Labour leadership have spoken out against mandatory reselection, McDonnell just the other day on TV said the current system with trigger ballots is fine.
That’s a single example, hardly what is now an openly discussed tactic within Corbyn’s Labour. I’ll assume, though, that you think it was all above board and democratic. Just as you are happy with current manoeuvres in some constituencies.
It also wasn’t an attempt to make make reselection manadatory, which you knew is what I was referring to as you referenced McDonnell not publicly backing it. Speaking of which.....
McDonnell in saying one thing in public whilst whipping up the ground troops behind closed doors shock.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:04 pm
by Mellsblue
Which Tyler wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
I have no skin in this game, but...
To be a hypocrite, wouldn't he have had to have been disciplined for rebelling AND said that the discipline was unfair / shouldn't have happened?
Semantics. He could easily put an end to it by pointing out he was a serial rebel and that Labour is meant to be a broad church. A broad church that tolerated him and then put him in the leadership contest. Well, I say easy. That’s if you believe he is more than just a puppet figure head with others pulling the strings.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:48 pm
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
Would you have felt that way if de/reselection had taken place under Blair?
More to the point, isn’t it illuminating that it didn’t.
you sure about that?
e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 999733.stm
meanwhile the Labour leadership have spoken out against mandatory reselection, McDonnell just the other day on TV said the current system with trigger ballots is fine.
That’s a single example, hardly what is now an openly discussed tactic within Corbyn’s Labour. I’ll assume, though, that you think it was all above board and democratic. Just as you are happy with current manoeuvres in some constituencies.
It also wasn’t an attempt to make make reselection manadatory, which you knew is what I was referring to as you referenced McDonnell not publicly backing it. Speaking of which.....
McDonnell in saying one thing in public whilst whipping up the ground troops behind closed doors shock.
Another example...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 70588.html
Nothing wrong with a bit of democracy. It's not healthy to give politicians a job for life.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:56 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
That’s a single example, hardly what is now an openly discussed tactic within Corbyn’s Labour. I’ll assume, though, that you think it was all above board and democratic. Just as you are happy with current manoeuvres in some constituencies.
It also wasn’t an attempt to make make reselection manadatory, which you knew is what I was referring to as you referenced McDonnell not publicly backing it. Speaking of which.....
McDonnell in saying one thing in public whilst whipping up the ground troops behind closed doors shock.
Another example...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 70588.html
Nothing wrong with a bit of democracy. It's not healthy to give politicians a job for life.
That was a Blairite being deselected. Hardly proof that the Blair leadership were leading a purge.
I agree that jobs for life leads to poor performamce and if you’re happy for it to work both ways then I won’t argue with your support of it. I doubt you’d be so supportive if New Labour supporters flooded a local party and ousted Williamson, Lewis, Abbott etc but maybe I’m overly cynical.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:09 pm
by fivepointer
All MPs should be open to selection at every election. It shouldnt be a job for life and goodness knows we could do with some new, bright Mps in the House. But it comes down to how they function as an MP. If an MP isnt performing, isnt active at Westminster, isnt an effective local representative and isnt doing much purposeful and productive work they should be replaced.
If that means ageing time servers like Denis Skinner, Ronnie Campbell, Paul Flynn or Kelvin Hopkins get the boot, then so be it.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:17 pm
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
That’s a single example, hardly what is now an openly discussed tactic within Corbyn’s Labour. I’ll assume, though, that you think it was all above board and democratic. Just as you are happy with current manoeuvres in some constituencies.
It also wasn’t an attempt to make make reselection manadatory, which you knew is what I was referring to as you referenced McDonnell not publicly backing it. Speaking of which.....
McDonnell in saying one thing in public whilst whipping up the ground troops behind closed doors shock.
Another example...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 70588.html
Nothing wrong with a bit of democracy. It's not healthy to give politicians a job for life.
That was a Blairite being deselected. Hardly proof that the Blair leadership were leading a purge.
I agree that jobs for life leads to poor performamce and if you’re happy for it to work both ways then I won’t argue with your support of it. I doubt you’d be so supportive if New Labour supporters flooded a local party and ousted Williamson, Lewis, Abbott etc but maybe I’m overly cynical.
It should be fair, if the local members (and it should be verified that they do live in the constituency) are unhappy with their representative then they should have the power to select a new one.
I'm not sure what you're implying, are you saying that CLPs are being flooded by Corbyn's supporters? If they are genuine members who genuinely live in the area, then what is the issue exactly? That people have found the motivation to get involved?
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:23 pm
by Mellsblue
I’d tend to agree that MPs should be up
for reselection at all GE’s but if you want to attract the right people and a wide range of people you need some stability. You also need to be careful that MP’s aren’t so busy pleasing and cosying up to a couple of hundred (wishful thinking in some associations) local members that they don’t serve as they see best and the rest of their constituents require.
Automatic reselection puts an awful lot of power in a very small number hands.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:24 pm
by Sandydragon
Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Fair play, you have bought that hook, line and sinker. Corbyn is allowing Momentum to do his dirty work.
As for democracy, why don’t you tell me what happens when someone who is a Labour Party member but isn’t a Corbyn fan turns up to speak to a Momentum event? Or how about the abuse of non Corbyn MPs by Momemtum members. Momentum isn’t interested in democracy. It’s interested in control.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:31 pm
by Zhivago
Sandydragon wrote:Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Who is now the leader of a party which is trying to punish its MPs for rebelling against the leadership. Hypocrite?
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Fair play, you have bought that hook, line and sinker. Corbyn is allowing Momentum to do his dirty work.
As for democracy, why don’t you tell me what happens when someone who is a Labour Party member but isn’t a Corbyn fan turns up to speak to a Momentum event? Or how about the abuse of non Corbyn MPs by Momemtum members. Momentum isn’t interested in democracy. It’s interested in control.
Could you give an example of such abuse? The only abuse I see is from the right... e.g. Joan Ryan calling her CLP trots communists stalinists or so... and Chuka Ummuna describing Momentum as Corbyn's 'Dogs' ... not to mention the abuse screamed by them... John Mann against Ken Livingstone, Corbyn being screamed at by Ian Austin during parliament when the Iraq War inquiry was discussed, Corbyn being labelled unjustly as an anti-semite... the list goes on and on.
We live in an age of smart phones and social media... where is all this abuse by momentum? I've seen nothing that sticks in my memory like the above.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:36 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:
That was a Blairite being deselected. Hardly proof that the Blair leadership were leading a purge.
I agree that jobs for life leads to poor performamce and if you’re happy for it to work both ways then I won’t argue with your support of it. I doubt you’d be so supportive if New Labour supporters flooded a local party and ousted Williamson, Lewis, Abbott etc but maybe I’m overly cynical.
It should be fair, if the local members (and it should be verified that they do live in the constituency) are unhappy with their representative then they should have the power to select a new one.
I'm not sure what you're implying, are you saying that CLPs are being flooded by Corbyn's supporters? If they are genuine members who genuinely live in the area, then what is the issue exactly? That people have found the motivation to get involved?
I don’t necessarily have a problem with it but that is definitely what is happening. I just think you’d have an issue with it if it were a New Labour tactic. As I said, I’ve no issue with you defending it if you truly believe it’s best practice even if it led to results you weren’t happy with. Mostly, I think the response of moderate MP’s and moderate Labour supporters is woeful and they’ve got what their inaction deserves.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:37 pm
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:I’d tend to agree that MPs should be up
for reselection at all GE’s but if you want to attract the right people and a wide range of people you need some stability. You also need to be careful that MP’s aren’t so busy pleasing and cosying up to a couple of hundred (wishful thinking in some associations) local members that they don’t serve as they see best and the rest of their constituents require.
Automatic reselection puts an awful lot of power in a very small number hands.
Another problem if you keep the same people in office for years on end is this career politician phenomenon... and the Westminster bubble... these are real problems in our democracy. We need people with new ideas, and you can't get that if they are blocked from becoming MPs by corrupt party processes.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:38 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Zhivago wrote:
Actually it's about letting the members hold their Labour candidates accountable. Therefore any talk about reselection by factions which support Corbyn are not aimed against those rebelling against the leadership, but aimed against those who rebel against the members.
Why should anyone be scared of a little democracy?
Fair play, you have bought that hook, line and sinker. Corbyn is allowing Momentum to do his dirty work.
As for democracy, why don’t you tell me what happens when someone who is a Labour Party member but isn’t a Corbyn fan turns up to speak to a Momentum event? Or how about the abuse of non Corbyn MPs by Momemtum members. Momentum isn’t interested in democracy. It’s interested in control.
Could you give an example of such abuse? The only abuse I see is from the right... e.g. Joan Ryan calling her CLP trots communists stalinists or so... and Chuka Ummuna describing Momentum as Corbyn's 'Dogs' ... not to mention the abuse screamed by them... John Mann against Ken Livingstone, Corbyn being screamed at by Ian Austin during parliament when the Iraq War inquiry was discussed, Corbyn being labelled unjustly as an anti-semite... the list goes on and on.
We live in an age of smart phones and social media... where is all this abuse by momentum? I've seen nothing that sticks in my memory like the above.
Here is the one-eyed view that makes me think you’d suddenly have an issue with mandatory reselection should it move against your political beliefs.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:39 pm
by Mellsblue
Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:I’d tend to agree that MPs should be up
for reselection at all GE’s but if you want to attract the right people and a wide range of people you need some stability. You also need to be careful that MP’s aren’t so busy pleasing and cosying up to a couple of hundred (wishful thinking in some associations) local members that they don’t serve as they see best and the rest of their constituents require.
Automatic reselection puts an awful lot of power in a very small number hands.
Another problem if you keep the same people in office for years on end is this career politician phenomenon... and the Westminster bubble... these are real problems in our democracy. We need people with new ideas, and you can't get that if they are blocked from becoming MPs by corrupt party processes.
Like Cotbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al? Again, your only for it if it suits your ends.
Re: Snap General Election called
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:48 pm
by Zhivago
Mellsblue wrote:Zhivago wrote:Mellsblue wrote:I’d tend to agree that MPs should be up
for reselection at all GE’s but if you want to attract the right people and a wide range of people you need some stability. You also need to be careful that MP’s aren’t so busy pleasing and cosying up to a couple of hundred (wishful thinking in some associations) local members that they don’t serve as they see best and the rest of their constituents require.
Automatic reselection puts an awful lot of power in a very small number hands.
Another problem if you keep the same people in office for years on end is this career politician phenomenon... and the Westminster bubble... these are real problems in our democracy. We need people with new ideas, and you can't get that if they are blocked from becoming MPs by corrupt party processes.
Like Cotbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al? Again, your only for it if it suits your ends.
I would support it under any leader. Any action that gives power back to the membership is to be lauded.
I find it insulting that you consider me to be a cynical aprincipled person who only supports it if it benefits me. I have principles and I follow these even if it is against my interests. I am in favour of higher tax for higher earners, despite already being in the highest tax bracket, for example.