New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[FKAS]

I suspect this was IFW's choice with him knowing he could do with some good 6N form to help get a Lions place.

[Captainhaircut]

For anyone suggesting Borthwick or England may be to blame for the IFW situation, I’m not quite sure what they would have done wrong looking at it from an England perspective.

Option 1: IFW has surgery immediately and misses 6N but fit to play some part in the later season.
Option 2: rehab and play some part in the 6N if successful. If rehab fails, surgery happens mid Feb meaning little to no game time in later season.

Option 1 doesn’t real benefit England. It would just have got him some extra game time to get into the lions squad. Borthwick shouldn’t care one jot about that. Option 2 sees him possibly play in 6N while still being fit for summer tour.

It’s an absolute no brainer from an England perspective.

Opti

[Oakboy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

I'm effectively quoting Baxter who said that the decision-making process was protracted for those whose health/fitness was managed by the international set-up. From memory, he said that if it was just a club decision the process would have been much quicker whichever route was taken. If Baxter was not lying how can the buck NOT rest with Borthwick? Maybe, the player opted for physio in the hope of getting on for 6N matches but I assume that any improvement was monitored. I'd also suggest that the original medical advice now needs reviewing. The question must be whether physio was really a viable solution in the first place. WT made the very valid point that a player has the final say on interference to his body but shoulder dislocations healing for professional rugby purposes without surgery are how likely? That IFW has now had surgery indicates that there was no fundamental objection in principle on his part. So, I'll stick with cock-up, I think.

[Oakboy]

Someone posted a 'thanks Obama' meme of someone burning their toast the other day, I imagine that's sort of how Oakboy's daily life goes but with Borthwick in his place.

How come I never get credit for praising Borthwick? No, forget that. Must not spoil my rep!!!!

[Banquo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

That was my first thought. I'd assumed the medical advisors had gone down the conservative route in consultation with the player, club, and Intl set up, It's no-one's fault tbh.

[FKAS]

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

I'm effectively quoting Baxter who said that the decision-making process was protracted for those whose health/fitness was managed by the international set-up. From memory, he said that if it was just a club decision the process would have been much quicker whichever route was taken. If Baxter was not lying how can the buck NOT rest with Borthwick? Maybe, the player opted for physio in the hope of getting on for 6N matches but I assume that any improvement was monitored. I'd also suggest that the original medical advice now needs reviewing. The question must be whether physio was really a viable solution in the first place. WT made the very valid point that a player has the final say on interference to his body but shoulder dislocations healing for professional rugby purposes without surgery are how likely? That IFW has now had surgery indicates that there was no fundamental objection in principle on his part. So, I'll stick with cock-up, I think.

I'm sure Baxter would have been happier to get the surgery done early and then get him back for Exeter's run in rather than IFW try to go non-surgery and try to get back for the 6N. IFW will have wanted to play in the 6N because missing out hurts his Lions chances. I'm sure the non-surgery route did take longer to sort out as well.

[Which Tyler]

A] This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away.

B] The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay.

C] Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

...

D] The question must be whether physio was really a viable solution in the first place. WT made the very valid point that a player has the final say on interference to his body but shoulder dislocations healing for professional rugby purposes without surgery are how likely? That IFW has now had surgery indicates that there was no fundamental objection in principle on his part. So, I'll stick with cock-up, I think.

A] Doing rehab before an operation is NOT "wasted months" - for any biomechanical operation
For a condition that is "rehab first, surgery if rehab fails" doing rehab first is NOT "wasted months"
Recovery may be later, but it should be fuller; and had the possibility of not requiring an operation at all - both of which are wins (though the latter is obviously the preferred outcome).

Which is not to say that the England medics were altruistic and the Exeter medics were selfish (for club) - neither set was being altruistic, but the England medics were closer to best practice for a dislocated shoulder.

B] The player always has the final say - they are guided by the advice they receive. In IFW's case, he'd also be guided by his own studies, his tutors, his fellow-students, and any other (relevant) medical contacts he's made. Unless Borthwick has a medical qualification I'm unaware of, I doubt that he had much direct input into the situation - same with Baxter.

C] Have you a quote please? I don't recall any inference that Borthwick was dithering - my memory is that Baxter was annoyed that the England medics had a different opinion than the Exeter medics, and it took some "to-ing and fro-ing" of IFW between the 2 sets (and IFW's seeking further opinions) before a decision was made.

D] For professional rugby purposes? no idea, it's virtually never tried, because professional rugby players rush to surgery as the first port of call for everything (or play through it, and have surgery later), so it's quite possibly never been tried before I've spent 20+ years bitching about this on and off here). For the general population - somewhere around 80-90% (determined by "other damage" or recurrence).
To the best of my knowledge, no-one ever claimed that there was a fundamental objection in principle to an operation, so that's just a straw-man. Following best practice is rehab first, and if that fails, then surgery.


E] Anyone who ever expected the new partnership and central contracts to be a land of milk and honey, and fully agreement over everything - they were living in a dreamworld. The whole reason the RFU wanted this extra say is because they so often disagreed with the clubs.
For a 1st-time shoulder dislocation, with no complicating factors (fracture, damage to surrounding tissue) the only rationale I can think of for surgery ahead of rehab is "recovery is 8-10 weeks, not 6-12" - which is not a medical rationale.
Worth noting here, for non-professional athletes, you'd say no contact sport for 4-6 months with rehab, 6-9 months with surgery. Pro athletes have better baselines, more intensive rehab, and greater incentive to return ASAP. 8-10 and 6-12 /52 are my estimates for a pro sportsman.



[edited, as I hadn't spotted that the page had turned over and conservation continued. Edited again to include more information]

[Banquo]

D] Anyone who ever expected the new partnership and central contracts to be a land of milk and honey, and fully agreement over everything - they were living in a dreamworld. The whole reason the RFU wanted this extra say is because they so often disagreed with the clubs.

...and yet despite throwing extra money at clubs, they still disagree often. That's why for example rest of game outside PRL is so pi55ed off with the RFU.

[Puja]

Completely unrelated to most things, but I found this about Sela's first name and thought it worth sharing: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/vilikesa ... land-bath/

“So coming through, Billy was the name,” he said with a smile, embracing the opportunity to explain the recent change that has happened with Bath and England age-grade. “On all the team sheets, I put my name down as Billy.

“But later on, my parents wanted to see my government name because it is a Fijian name and they see more pride in seeing Vilikesa, so I was like OK and asked them to change it to Vilikesa… but everyone still calls me Billy around here.”

So, it's not like Faletau, where he was specific that he only wanted to be referred to as Taulupe, but both Billy and Vilikesa are appropriate to refer to him as.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

This will cheer you up, Dors:

‘Freeman, to train at outside centre, where he has been earmarked to play in the future as England seek to evolve their midfield balance.’

Per todays The Times.

[Mikey Brown]

This will cheer you up, Dors:

‘Freeman, to train at outside centre, where he has been earmarked to play in the future as England seek to evolve their midfield balance.’

Per todays The Times.

Too early / not enough gametime, sure, but I'd love to see it. We have some exciting wingers (though do we know how to use them beyond cross-field kicks?) and two centres who blow hot and cold.

Beard has been excellent at 13 this season but I struggle to see him in this Borthwick team for whatever reason.

[Puja]

Interesting: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... he-ridley/

England have engaged the services of international referee Christophe Ridley to consult on officiating matters and improve their discipline in the Six Nations, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

Ridley, a current Six Nations official who oversaw Ireland’s victory over Wales, has been attending training at Pennyhill Park twice a week and advising the squad on current officiating trends. Ridley is one member of the English cohort of referees employed by the RFU who regularly officiates in the Premiership.

Referees working in international environments is not a new concept – former referees Jaco Peyper and Jérôme Garcès are both full-time on the staff with South Africa and France respectively – but it is rare for an active referee to be working in camp. Now, England have someone who attends referees’ meetings with World Rugby and who knows all the up-to-date trends of elite officiating.

The move has been spearheaded by Steve Borthwick and his coaches in an effort to improve England’s discipline. Previously, the Rugby Football Union has provided officials to advise the England team – and referee training sessions – on rotation but they have traditionally been quite hands-off. Ridley’s regular involvement has paid dividends, too, with England’s discipline among the best in the championship so far this Six Nations.

It is understood that Ridley updates the squad at the start of each training week at Pennyhill Park, having reviewed England’s match the previous weekend. The 31-year-old will outline and assess incidents in the game where England have forced the match official to make a judgment call in ambiguous moments. More often than not, penalties that England did not give away attracts the greatest focus, rather than ones that they did.

Ridley, who has been refereeing all training and scrummaging sessions in camp, challenges players on moments in matches where they have been putting pressure on referees to make a judgment call; moments where England might have been legal, but they also might not have been. The aim is to ensure that they remain evidently within the rules to avoid compelling referees into making a 50/50 call that might go against them.

“Why be a millimetre onside when you can be an inch?” one source said. “It makes no difference. This is how you stop giving away cheap penalties.”

It is also understood that Ridley has been informally supporting Maro Itoje, in his first Six Nations as captain, on how best to interact with each of England’s five officials in the championship.

Borthwick confirmed to Telegraph Sport that Ridley’s role had been extended.

“I have been delighted with the players’ attitude towards team discipline. The fact that we are regularly winning ‘the discipline battle’ is not by chance. Players and coaches alike now put a significant emphasis on this part of our preparations.

“We continually educate and update the team around law implications and refereeing trends. Christophe Ridley recently joined us in Spain at our pre-tournament camp. His extended opportunity to be in contact with the team provided a great opportunity to get a clear understanding of how we anticipated the game might be officiated this Six Nations.

“At the end of the day, however, it is because we have made the issue of discipline so important that I think the players have responded so well, so often. They understandably take pride in their penalty count.”

The regularity of Ridley’s visits increased after England’s pre-Six Nations training camp in Girona. In the wins against France and Scotland – both one-point victories – Borthwick understood the importance of discipline and referee management, with the wins keeping England’s championship hopes alive. In both matches, the losing side were penalised more frequently.

“In a game like that [winning the penalty count] is essential,” Borthwick said. “In a game like that when the ball is in the middle of the field and both teams are trying to find an avenue to open up and get access into the opposition 22, you need to minimise that by discipline. We have won the penalty count in two of the three games in the Six Nations and we won the count in three of the four games in the autumn series. Discipline is strong and it is seriously led by the captain. There are areas we want to improve and we need to against a team like Italy. They are a team not dissimilar to [Scotland]; they kick the ball, have low phase count and kick a lot of contestable kicks, which means discipline is crucial.”

England have the third best average penalties per game tally in the Six Nations, behind just France and Italy, but better than championship leaders Ireland. Against France, England did not concede a single penalty in a decisive final quarter, where a late Elliot Daly try sealed victory; against Scotland, Finn Russell did not have one penalty attempt at goal.

Ridley is not due to take charge of another match in this Six Nations, but he will be one of the assistant referees in the potentially title-deciding showdown between Ireland and France.

It has been notable how good our discipline has been so far this 6N. Good work by Stolid Bargainer to get him in and have him so involved.

Puja

[Banquo]

Interesting: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... he-ridley/

England have engaged the services of international referee Christophe Ridley to consult on officiating matters and improve their discipline in the Six Nations, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

Ridley, a current Six Nations official who oversaw Ireland’s victory over Wales, has been attending training at Pennyhill Park twice a week and advising the squad on current officiating trends. Ridley is one member of the English cohort of referees employed by the RFU who regularly officiates in the Premiership.

Referees working in international environments is not a new concept – former referees Jaco Peyper and Jérôme Garcès are both full-time on the staff with South Africa and France respectively – but it is rare for an active referee to be working in camp. Now, England have someone who attends referees’ meetings with World Rugby and who knows all the up-to-date trends of elite officiating.

The move has been spearheaded by Steve Borthwick and his coaches in an effort to improve England’s discipline. Previously, the Rugby Football Union has provided officials to advise the England team – and referee training sessions – on rotation but they have traditionally been quite hands-off. Ridley’s regular involvement has paid dividends, too, with England’s discipline among the best in the championship so far this Six Nations.

It is understood that Ridley updates the squad at the start of each training week at Pennyhill Park, having reviewed England’s match the previous weekend. The 31-year-old will outline and assess incidents in the game where England have forced the match official to make a judgment call in ambiguous moments. More often than not, penalties that England did not give away attracts the greatest focus, rather than ones that they did.

Ridley, who has been refereeing all training and scrummaging sessions in camp, challenges players on moments in matches where they have been putting pressure on referees to make a judgment call; moments where England might have been legal, but they also might not have been. The aim is to ensure that they remain evidently within the rules to avoid compelling referees into making a 50/50 call that might go against them.

“Why be a millimetre onside when you can be an inch?” one source said. “It makes no difference. This is how you stop giving away cheap penalties.”

It is also understood that Ridley has been informally supporting Maro Itoje, in his first Six Nations as captain, on how best to interact with each of England’s five officials in the championship.

Borthwick confirmed to Telegraph Sport that Ridley’s role had been extended.

“I have been delighted with the players’ attitude towards team discipline. The fact that we are regularly winning ‘the discipline battle’ is not by chance. Players and coaches alike now put a significant emphasis on this part of our preparations.

“We continually educate and update the team around law implications and refereeing trends. Christophe Ridley recently joined us in Spain at our pre-tournament camp. His extended opportunity to be in contact with the team provided a great opportunity to get a clear understanding of how we anticipated the game might be officiated this Six Nations.

“At the end of the day, however, it is because we have made the issue of discipline so important that I think the players have responded so well, so often. They understandably take pride in their penalty count.”

The regularity of Ridley’s visits increased after England’s pre-Six Nations training camp in Girona. In the wins against France and Scotland – both one-point victories – Borthwick understood the importance of discipline and referee management, with the wins keeping England’s championship hopes alive. In both matches, the losing side were penalised more frequently.

“In a game like that [winning the penalty count] is essential,” Borthwick said. “In a game like that when the ball is in the middle of the field and both teams are trying to find an avenue to open up and get access into the opposition 22, you need to minimise that by discipline. We have won the penalty count in two of the three games in the Six Nations and we won the count in three of the four games in the autumn series. Discipline is strong and it is seriously led by the captain. There are areas we want to improve and we need to against a team like Italy. They are a team not dissimilar to [Scotland]; they kick the ball, have low phase count and kick a lot of contestable kicks, which means discipline is crucial.”

England have the third best average penalties per game tally in the Six Nations, behind just France and Italy, but better than championship leaders Ireland. Against France, England did not concede a single penalty in a decisive final quarter, where a late Elliot Daly try sealed victory; against Scotland, Finn Russell did not have one penalty attempt at goal.

Ridley is not due to take charge of another match in this Six Nations, but he will be one of the assistant referees in the potentially title-deciding showdown between Ireland and France.

It has been notable how good our discipline has been so far this 6N. Good work by Stolid Bargainer to get him in and have him so involved.

Puja

10 pens sat has been our worst so getting better...except, the pens are really daft ones still, in general.

[Banquo]

hmmm
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso surgery delayed after ‘RFU medics had Christmas off’
Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter to meet Steve Borthwick after claiming wing was not assessed immediately after hurting shoulder in December
new
Will Kelleher, Deputy Rugby Correspondent
Wednesday February 26 2025, 3.00pm, The Times
Christmas
Steve Borthwick
England rugby union team
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso of England during a rugby match.
Feyi-Waboso could miss this summer’s Lions tour after undergoing surgery on his shoulder last week, months after dislocating it

Rob Baxter has claimed Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the rest of the season, and possibly the British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, partly because RFU medics were not available to treat him around Christmas.

The frustrated Exeter Chiefs director of rugby will now meet with Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the RFU to discuss the injury saga, with a view to ensuring it is not repeated.

Feyi-Waboso, the 22-year-old wing, has been caught in the middle of club and country deliberations for two months after he dislocated a shoulder while playing for Exeter against Sale Sharks on December 21. He finally had surgery last week, having re-injured himself in an England camp.

Exeter Chiefs v Union Bordeaux-Begles - Investec Champions Cup 2024/2025
Baxter said the RFU did not act as quickly as Exeter did

As one of 17 players centrally contracted by the RFU, as part of the new Professional Game Partnership signed by Gallagher Premiership clubs and the union, Feyi-Waboso’s medical decisions should now be made by England. Exeter took him for two scans, on December 23 and 27, and booked a date for an operation.

England then wanted to reassess Feyi-Waboso in January. Exeter wanted it to happen earlier but they could not raise RFU medical staff because they were away over the festive period and not in camp. That is the element Baxter wants to discuss with the RFU’s executive director of performance rugby, Conor O’Shea, and Borthwick, who now has the final say on medical matters for those contracted by the union.

“My bigger frustration is that it took a while for the process to get going because of the Christmas period,” Baxter said.

“Initially there wasn’t anyone available [from the RFU]. That would be my argument — if you take charge of the situation, the first person who should see Manny is the RFU. That would be my inclination of what the agreement means. Outside of that, the management of it was always 50-50.


“There were always going to be some teething issues, weren’t there? Initially, however you want to look at it, it’s probably caught England by surprise as well. Saying you’re going to take charge of it and then actually taking charge of it within 24 hours are two different things, when you’re not in a competitive window so people aren’t together.

“Those are some of the things that they need to establish and get right. Immediate care means immediate care, and you get on with it straight away. Initially, in our process, we organised a scan two days after [the injury], then a second scan the day after Boxing Day, then an operation was booked.

“That process was quite quick in our hands, and England at that stage didn’t really have any involvement in that Christmas period. That’s the bit that really needs sorting out, and the bit I’ve said to Conor O’Shea that needs to be looked at.”

England’s view differs from Baxter’s. They maintain surgery was only discussed after Feyi-Waboso’s second MRI scan, where he was told he had a 50-50 choice between going under the knife or not. The wing was asked to wait for two weeks to see whether his shoulder settled, and when it did not, he opted to have surgery.

However, he then needed a second, separate procedure to address a tooth infection, which delayed the shoulder operation. Having lost time, Feyi-Waboso therefore tried rehabilitation instead, aiming to play in the Six Nations to enhance his chances of making the Lions tour, but he re-injured himself during an England fitness test a fortnight ago. Feyi-Waboso had surgery last Wednesday and he will now be out until late May.

Baxter knows this case was complicated and is not seeking to blame the RFU. “I’m speaking to Conor O’Shea and Steve Borthwick, and everyone has agreed that the whole scenario around how things have worked needs to be discussed post Six Nations,” he said.


“We need to discuss how things should happen and how they should work going forward. You don’t need me to tell you that someone gets injured before Christmas and is only having an operation now, that somewhere in the process something has gone wrong, hasn’t it?

“We’ve got to find a better way in the future. I’m not saying it was a straightforward case, I’m not saying anyone’s made good or bad decisions in there. Is it a straight RFU are wrong, Exeter are wrong? It’s not. It’s nowhere near that simple.”

Baxter is still hopeful that Feyi-Waboso can make the Lions tour. He coached England on their summer trip to Argentina in 2013, from where the likes of Alex Corbisiero and Christian Wade were called up to the Lions in Australia, so he knows the door is not closed.

“I still think he’s got that wild-card shot,” Baxter added.

[Puja]

hmmm
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso surgery delayed after ‘RFU medics had Christmas off’
Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter to meet Steve Borthwick after claiming wing was not assessed immediately after hurting shoulder in December
new
Will Kelleher, Deputy Rugby Correspondent
Wednesday February 26 2025, 3.00pm, The Times
Christmas
Steve Borthwick
England rugby union team
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso of England during a rugby match.
Feyi-Waboso could miss this summer’s Lions tour after undergoing surgery on his shoulder last week, months after dislocating it

Rob Baxter has claimed Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the rest of the season, and possibly the British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, partly because RFU medics were not available to treat him around Christmas.

The frustrated Exeter Chiefs director of rugby will now meet with Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the RFU to discuss the injury saga, with a view to ensuring it is not repeated.

Feyi-Waboso, the 22-year-old wing, has been caught in the middle of club and country deliberations for two months after he dislocated a shoulder while playing for Exeter against Sale Sharks on December 21. He finally had surgery last week, having re-injured himself in an England camp.

Exeter Chiefs v Union Bordeaux-Begles - Investec Champions Cup 2024/2025
Baxter said the RFU did not act as quickly as Exeter did

As one of 17 players centrally contracted by the RFU, as part of the new Professional Game Partnership signed by Gallagher Premiership clubs and the union, Feyi-Waboso’s medical decisions should now be made by England. Exeter took him for two scans, on December 23 and 27, and booked a date for an operation.

England then wanted to reassess Feyi-Waboso in January. Exeter wanted it to happen earlier but they could not raise RFU medical staff because they were away over the festive period and not in camp. That is the element Baxter wants to discuss with the RFU’s executive director of performance rugby, Conor O’Shea, and Borthwick, who now has the final say on medical matters for those contracted by the union.

“My bigger frustration is that it took a while for the process to get going because of the Christmas period,” Baxter said.

“Initially there wasn’t anyone available [from the RFU]. That would be my argument — if you take charge of the situation, the first person who should see Manny is the RFU. That would be my inclination of what the agreement means. Outside of that, the management of it was always 50-50.


“There were always going to be some teething issues, weren’t there? Initially, however you want to look at it, it’s probably caught England by surprise as well. Saying you’re going to take charge of it and then actually taking charge of it within 24 hours are two different things, when you’re not in a competitive window so people aren’t together.

“Those are some of the things that they need to establish and get right. Immediate care means immediate care, and you get on with it straight away. Initially, in our process, we organised a scan two days after [the injury], then a second scan the day after Boxing Day, then an operation was booked.

“That process was quite quick in our hands, and England at that stage didn’t really have any involvement in that Christmas period. That’s the bit that really needs sorting out, and the bit I’ve said to Conor O’Shea that needs to be looked at.”

England’s view differs from Baxter’s. They maintain surgery was only discussed after Feyi-Waboso’s second MRI scan, where he was told he had a 50-50 choice between going under the knife or not. The wing was asked to wait for two weeks to see whether his shoulder settled, and when it did not, he opted to have surgery.

However, he then needed a second, separate procedure to address a tooth infection, which delayed the shoulder operation. Having lost time, Feyi-Waboso therefore tried rehabilitation instead, aiming to play in the Six Nations to enhance his chances of making the Lions tour, but he re-injured himself during an England fitness test a fortnight ago. Feyi-Waboso had surgery last Wednesday and he will now be out until late May.

Baxter knows this case was complicated and is not seeking to blame the RFU. “I’m speaking to Conor O’Shea and Steve Borthwick, and everyone has agreed that the whole scenario around how things have worked needs to be discussed post Six Nations,” he said.


“We need to discuss how things should happen and how they should work going forward. You don’t need me to tell you that someone gets injured before Christmas and is only having an operation now, that somewhere in the process something has gone wrong, hasn’t it?

“We’ve got to find a better way in the future. I’m not saying it was a straightforward case, I’m not saying anyone’s made good or bad decisions in there. Is it a straight RFU are wrong, Exeter are wrong? It’s not. It’s nowhere near that simple.”

Baxter is still hopeful that Feyi-Waboso can make the Lions tour. He coached England on their summer trip to Argentina in 2013, from where the likes of Alex Corbisiero and Christian Wade were called up to the Lions in Australia, so he knows the door is not closed.

“I still think he’s got that wild-card shot,” Baxter added.

TBH, that article, despite the spin they're trying to put on it, is just backing up what Which has said on the issue - trying rehab is not wasted time and, as a trainee doctor, Feyi-Waboso was in the best possible position to make his own decisions on how his body was treated. With hindsight, probably should've made different decisions, but I can't see it's the RFU's fault.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Had it been a club/player decision would discussion between just them have resulted in IFW choosing the op' straight away? Probably not so the debate then just moves on to streamlining the procedure for everybody's future benefit.

However, if IFW would have chosen the op' without England's input it may be arguable that he would be close to a return by now (16 - 18 weeks is the sort of post-op rehab I have seen mentioned).

I remain surprised that a successful return to pro rugby from a dislocated shoulder was ever considered feasible without surgery. Maybe, there have been instances?

[Banquo]

hmmm
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso surgery delayed after ‘RFU medics had Christmas off’
Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter to meet Steve Borthwick after claiming wing was not assessed immediately after hurting shoulder in December
new
Will Kelleher, Deputy Rugby Correspondent
Wednesday February 26 2025, 3.00pm, The Times
Christmas
Steve Borthwick
England rugby union team
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso of England during a rugby match.
Feyi-Waboso could miss this summer’s Lions tour after undergoing surgery on his shoulder last week, months after dislocating it

Rob Baxter has claimed Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the rest of the season, and possibly the British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, partly because RFU medics were not available to treat him around Christmas.

The frustrated Exeter Chiefs director of rugby will now meet with Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the RFU to discuss the injury saga, with a view to ensuring it is not repeated.

Feyi-Waboso, the 22-year-old wing, has been caught in the middle of club and country deliberations for two months after he dislocated a shoulder while playing for Exeter against Sale Sharks on December 21. He finally had surgery last week, having re-injured himself in an England camp.

Exeter Chiefs v Union Bordeaux-Begles - Investec Champions Cup 2024/2025
Baxter said the RFU did not act as quickly as Exeter did

As one of 17 players centrally contracted by the RFU, as part of the new Professional Game Partnership signed by Gallagher Premiership clubs and the union, Feyi-Waboso’s medical decisions should now be made by England. Exeter took him for two scans, on December 23 and 27, and booked a date for an operation.

England then wanted to reassess Feyi-Waboso in January. Exeter wanted it to happen earlier but they could not raise RFU medical staff because they were away over the festive period and not in camp. That is the element Baxter wants to discuss with the RFU’s executive director of performance rugby, Conor O’Shea, and Borthwick, who now has the final say on medical matters for those contracted by the union.

“My bigger frustration is that it took a while for the process to get going because of the Christmas period,” Baxter said.

“Initially there wasn’t anyone available [from the RFU]. That would be my argument — if you take charge of the situation, the first person who should see Manny is the RFU. That would be my inclination of what the agreement means. Outside of that, the management of it was always 50-50.


“There were always going to be some teething issues, weren’t there? Initially, however you want to look at it, it’s probably caught England by surprise as well. Saying you’re going to take charge of it and then actually taking charge of it within 24 hours are two different things, when you’re not in a competitive window so people aren’t together.

“Those are some of the things that they need to establish and get right. Immediate care means immediate care, and you get on with it straight away. Initially, in our process, we organised a scan two days after [the injury], then a second scan the day after Boxing Day, then an operation was booked.

“That process was quite quick in our hands, and England at that stage didn’t really have any involvement in that Christmas period. That’s the bit that really needs sorting out, and the bit I’ve said to Conor O’Shea that needs to be looked at.”

England’s view differs from Baxter’s. They maintain surgery was only discussed after Feyi-Waboso’s second MRI scan, where he was told he had a 50-50 choice between going under the knife or not. The wing was asked to wait for two weeks to see whether his shoulder settled, and when it did not, he opted to have surgery.

However, he then needed a second, separate procedure to address a tooth infection, which delayed the shoulder operation. Having lost time, Feyi-Waboso therefore tried rehabilitation instead, aiming to play in the Six Nations to enhance his chances of making the Lions tour, but he re-injured himself during an England fitness test a fortnight ago. Feyi-Waboso had surgery last Wednesday and he will now be out until late May.

Baxter knows this case was complicated and is not seeking to blame the RFU. “I’m speaking to Conor O’Shea and Steve Borthwick, and everyone has agreed that the whole scenario around how things have worked needs to be discussed post Six Nations,” he said.


“We need to discuss how things should happen and how they should work going forward. You don’t need me to tell you that someone gets injured before Christmas and is only having an operation now, that somewhere in the process something has gone wrong, hasn’t it?

“We’ve got to find a better way in the future. I’m not saying it was a straightforward case, I’m not saying anyone’s made good or bad decisions in there. Is it a straight RFU are wrong, Exeter are wrong? It’s not. It’s nowhere near that simple.”

Baxter is still hopeful that Feyi-Waboso can make the Lions tour. He coached England on their summer trip to Argentina in 2013, from where the likes of Alex Corbisiero and Christian Wade were called up to the Lions in Australia, so he knows the door is not closed.

“I still think he’s got that wild-card shot,” Baxter added.

TBH, that article, despite the spin they're trying to put on it, is just backing up what Which has said on the issue - trying rehab is not wasted time and, as a trainee doctor, Feyi-Waboso was in the best possible position to make his own decisions on how his body was treated. With hindsight, probably should've made different decisions, but I can't see it's the RFU's fault.

Puja

It just indicates how difficult it remains to manage players even with the new contracts, and how the clubs will always look to have a pop at the rfu.

[Puja]

It just indicates how difficult it remains to manage players even with the new contracts, and how the clubs will always look to have a pop at the rfu.

Yeah, Baxter's definitely off on one at the moment. All, "I'm not saying it's England's fault and I don't want anyone think I'm blaming them," whilst giving yet another comment to the press about his annoyance that IFW's surgery's been delayed. Ordinarily, this kind of thing stems from one interview that various outlets have span off in different ways, but this has definitely been several, separate utterances, over the space of a week or two, keeping the pot stirred.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

It's almost like Exeter are having a bad season, and their head coach wants to distract us from that...

[Banquo]

It's almost like Exeter are having a bad season, and their head coach wants to distract us from that...

was just about to say exactly that. I think he's run out of ideas/cash and prob past his Exeter sell by date.

[Danno]

George Martin ruled out for the last 2 games

[FKAS]

George Martin ruled out for the last 2 games

Knee and shoulder issues but it's the shoulder that keeps him out the knee is manageable. Surgery not required which is a bonus. Hopefully just needs a bit of a rest.

[Which Tyler]

shoulder Surgery not required which is a bonus.

Shush, no-one tell Rob Baxter...

[FKAS]

shoulder Surgery not required which is a bonus.

Shush, no-one tell Rob Baxter...

Imagine his reaction if it turns out Martin needs it but England haven't done it immediately...

[Danno]

I hate the fallow weeks I'M SO BORED