2023 RWC Host Poll

[rowan]

You're simply rehashing comments that were stupid in the first place. You're simply saying the competition shouldn't go to South Africa, despite its vastly superior qualifications, and that's the end of it. You have an obvious prejudice, along with an entirely baseless conviction tiny, rain-swept Ireland has some kind of divine right to be the major host of an event in which it has actually fared poorly. Read, once again, the comparison, because there are the facts:



World Cup matches hosted:
1 New Zealand 69 (2 tournaments)
2 Australia 59 (2 tournaments)
3 France 58 (3 tournaments)
4 England 56 (3 tournaments)
5 South Africa 32 (1 tournament)
6 Wales 28 (4 tournaments)
7 Scotland 15 (3 tournaments)
8 Ireland 12 (2 tournaments)

Most successful World Cup nations:
1 New Zealand 3 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze, 1 4th
2 Australia 2 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze, 4th
3 South Africa 2 golds, 2 bronze
4 England 1 gold, 2 silvers, 1 4th
5 France 3 silvers, 1 bronze, 2 4th
6 Wales 1 bronze, 1 4th
7 Argentina 1 bronze, 1 4th
8 Scotland 1 4th

Registered Rugby Players (by thousands):
1 France 542
2 South Africa 405
3 England 382
4 Australia 230
5 New Zealand 150
6 USA 120
7 Fiji 120
8 Japan 105

Top stadia in South Africa (40K plus):

ZAF Kaizer Chiefs FC Football Johannesburg FNB Stadium 94 736 2009 all-seater
ZAF Golden Lions RU Rugby Johannesburg Ellis Park Stadium 62 567 1928 all-seater
ZAF Garankuwa United Football Mafikeng Mmabatho Stadium 59 000 1981 all-seater
ZAF Ajax Cape Town Football Cape Town Cape Town Stadium 55 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF Cape Town City FC Football Cape Town Cape Town Stadium 55 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF The Sharks Rugby Durban ABSA Stadium 55 000 1891 all-seater
ZAF AmaZulu FC Football Durban Moses Mabhida Stadium 54 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF Blue Bulls RU Rugby Tshwane Loftus Versfeld 51 762 1924 all-seater
ZAF Mamelodi Sundowns FC Football Tshwane Loftus Versfeld 51 762 1924 all-seater
ZAF Stormers Super 14 Rugby Cape Town Newlands Stadium 50 900 1989 all-seater
ZAF Western Province RU Rugby Cape Town Newlands Stadium 50 900 1989 all-seater
ZAF Eastern Province Kings Rugby Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Southern Kings Rugby Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Chippa United FC Football Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Free State Cheetahs Rugby Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Central Cheetahs Rugby Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Bloemfontein Celtic Football Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Platinum Stars FC Football Phokeng Royal Bafokeng Stadium 42 000 1999 all-seater
ZAF Black Leopards FC Football Polokwane Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 911 2009 all-seater
ZAF Polokwane City FC Football Polokwane Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 911 2009 all-seater
ZAF Steval Pumas Rugby Nelspruit Mbombela Stadium 40 929 2009 all-seater
ZAF Orlando Pirates FC Football Orlando Orlando Stadium 40 000 2008 all-seater

Top Stadia in Ireland (40 k plus):

IRL National Stadium Gaelic Football/Hurling Dublin Croke Park 82 300 2002 69 500
IRL Tipperary County Gaelic Football/Hurling Thurles Semple Stadium 53 000 1910 -
IRL National Stadium Football Dublin Aviva Stadium 51 700 2010 all-seater
IRL National Stadium Rugby Dublin Aviva Stadium 51 700 2010 all-seater
IRL Limerick County Gaelic Football/Hurling Limerick Gaelic Grounds 50 000 1926 35 000
IRL Cork County Gaelic Football/Hurling Cork Páirc Uí Chaoimh 43 000 1976 -
IRL Kerry County Gaelic Football/Hurling Killarney Fitzgerald Stadium 43 000 1936 -

South Africa population 56 million

Metropolitan centers with over 1 million:
1 Johannesburg 7,860,781
2 Cape Town 3,740,026
3 Durban 3,442,361
4 Germiston-Ekurhuleni 3,178,470
5 Pretoria 2,921,488
6 Nelspruit-Ehlanzeni 1,688,615
7 Rustenburg 1,507,505
8 Mthatha-OR Tambo 1,364,943
9 Middelburg-Nkangala 1,308,129
10 Thohoyandou-Vhembe 1,294,722

Johannesburg climate in September - average 16°C, 4 days of rain
Johannesburg climate in October - average 18°C, 12 days of rain

Ireland population 5 million

Metropolitan centers with over 1 million:
1 Dublin 1,904,806

Dublin climate in September - average 14°C, 21 days of rain
Dublin climate in October - average 11°C, 24 days of rain

[rowan]

Clinging to the lack of previous main host status as your main argument merely reveals the inadequacy of your case for Ireland. Would Tonga immediately be installed as favorites on that basis if they bid. The point being South Africa is the only one of the games Super Powers not to have been involved twice, the one occasion on which it was involved was back in the amateur era - and it did a fantastic job - and it is bidding for the 4th time in succession. Ireland, a dwarf next to South Africa in everyway conceivable in this context, has indeed been involved in co-hosting two World Cups, one of them in the pro era. So if they were to receive it at their first attempt, ahead of South Africa, that would smack of a certain bias, clearly.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Preference isn't bias.

[rowan]

It is when based on irrational arguments.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

It is when based on irrational arguments.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it irrational. In fact in your case I'd venture to suggest the reverse is more likely to be the case.

[rowan]

But I've already demonstrated the lunacy of equating Ireland's credentials with South Africa's. In case you missed it:

World Cup matches hosted:
1 New Zealand 69 (2 tournaments)
2 Australia 59 (2 tournaments)
3 France 58 (3 tournaments)
4 England 56 (3 tournaments)
5 South Africa 32 (1 tournament)
6 Wales 28 (4 tournaments)
7 Scotland 15 (3 tournaments)
8 Ireland 12 (2 tournaments)

Most successful World Cup nations:
1 New Zealand 3 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze, 1 4th
2 Australia 2 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze, 4th
3 South Africa 2 golds, 2 bronze
4 England 1 gold, 2 silvers, 1 4th
5 France 3 silvers, 1 bronze, 2 4th
6 Wales 1 bronze, 1 4th
7 Argentina 1 bronze, 1 4th
8 Scotland 1 4th

Registered Rugby Players (by thousands):
1 France 542
2 South Africa 405
3 England 382
4 Australia 230
5 New Zealand 150
6 USA 120
7 Fiji 120
8 Japan 105

Top stadia in South Africa (40K plus):

ZAF Kaizer Chiefs FC Football Johannesburg FNB Stadium 94 736 2009 all-seater
ZAF Golden Lions RU Rugby Johannesburg Ellis Park Stadium 62 567 1928 all-seater
ZAF Garankuwa United Football Mafikeng Mmabatho Stadium 59 000 1981 all-seater
ZAF Ajax Cape Town Football Cape Town Cape Town Stadium 55 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF Cape Town City FC Football Cape Town Cape Town Stadium 55 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF The Sharks Rugby Durban ABSA Stadium 55 000 1891 all-seater
ZAF AmaZulu FC Football Durban Moses Mabhida Stadium 54 000 2009 all-seater
ZAF Blue Bulls RU Rugby Tshwane Loftus Versfeld 51 762 1924 all-seater
ZAF Mamelodi Sundowns FC Football Tshwane Loftus Versfeld 51 762 1924 all-seater
ZAF Stormers Super 14 Rugby Cape Town Newlands Stadium 50 900 1989 all-seater
ZAF Western Province RU Rugby Cape Town Newlands Stadium 50 900 1989 all-seater
ZAF Eastern Province Kings Rugby Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Southern Kings Rugby Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Chippa United FC Football Port Elizabeth Nelson Mandela Stadium 48 459 2009 all-seater
ZAF Free State Cheetahs Rugby Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Central Cheetahs Rugby Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Bloemfontein Celtic Football Bloemfontein Vodacom Park 48 000 1995 all-seater
ZAF Platinum Stars FC Football Phokeng Royal Bafokeng Stadium 42 000 1999 all-seater
ZAF Black Leopards FC Football Polokwane Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 911 2009 all-seater
ZAF Polokwane City FC Football Polokwane Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 911 2009 all-seater
ZAF Steval Pumas Rugby Nelspruit Mbombela Stadium 40 929 2009 all-seater
ZAF Orlando Pirates FC Football Orlando Orlando Stadium 40 000 2008 all-seater

Top Stadia in Ireland (40 k plus):

IRL National Stadium Gaelic Football/Hurling Dublin Croke Park 82 300 2002 69 500
IRL Tipperary County Gaelic Football/Hurling Thurles Semple Stadium 53 000 1910 -
IRL National Stadium Football Dublin Aviva Stadium 51 700 2010 all-seater
IRL National Stadium Rugby Dublin Aviva Stadium 51 700 2010 all-seater
IRL Limerick County Gaelic Football/Hurling Limerick Gaelic Grounds 50 000 1926 35 000
IRL Cork County Gaelic Football/Hurling Cork Páirc Uí Chaoimh 43 000 1976 -
IRL Kerry County Gaelic Football/Hurling Killarney Fitzgerald Stadium 43 000 1936 -

South Africa population 56 million

Metropolitan centers with over 1 million:
1 Johannesburg 7,860,781
2 Cape Town 3,740,026
3 Durban 3,442,361
4 Germiston-Ekurhuleni 3,178,470
5 Pretoria 2,921,488
6 Nelspruit-Ehlanzeni 1,688,615
7 Rustenburg 1,507,505
8 Mthatha-OR Tambo 1,364,943
9 Middelburg-Nkangala 1,308,129
10 Thohoyandou-Vhembe 1,294,722

Johannesburg climate in September - average 16°C, 4 days of rain
Johannesburg climate in October - average 18°C, 12 days of rain

Ireland population 5 million

Metropolitan centers with over 1 million:
1 Dublin 1,904,806

Dublin climate in September - average 14°C, 21 days of rain
Dublin climate in October - average 11°C, 24 days of rain

[Which Tyler]

But I've already demonstrated lunacy

On that I think we can all agree

[rowan]

Misquoting someone to make an infantile statement because you disagree with them only demonstrates your own lunacy, obviously.

So you guys really are out of arguments, aren't you? Too dangerous, they cried, even as South Africa continued to host an annual leg of the World Sevens Circuit. Hosted before, they cried, even though that didn't stop Australia, NZ or England, while France is bidding to be involved for the 4th time and Ireland the 3rd. Blah blah.

Meanwhile, I've presented you with plenty of straightforward arguments and data which prove beyond doubt South Africa's vastly superior credentials to Ireland's, while France simply shouldn't be considered again so soon - as some of you actually appear to agree. Therefore it can only be assumed you are completely biased in favor of Ireland's bid for your own selfish reasons - and/or completely biased against the Africa bid - and are too closed-minded on the issue to actually debate it like adults.

[Digby]

But I've already demonstrated lunacy

On that I think we can all agree

I don't know if he is a lunatic in fairness. He might just be writing rubbish to try and get angry/mocking responses as that's what floats his boat, which would merely be odd rather than lunatic, if on the other hands actually believes the various comments made well then that would seem to be in the lunacy camp.

[rowan]

Same response to that:

Misquoting someone to make an infantile statement because you disagree with them only demonstrates your own lunacy, obviously.

So you guys really are out of arguments, aren't you? Too dangerous, they cried, even as South Africa continued to host an annual leg of the World Sevens Circuit. Hosted before, they cried, even though that didn't stop Australia, NZ or England, while France is bidding to be involved for the 4th time and Ireland the 3rd. Blah blah.

Meanwhile, I've presented you with plenty of straightforward arguments and data which prove beyond doubt South Africa's vastly superior credentials to Ireland's, while France simply shouldn't be considered again so soon - as some of you actually appear to agree. Therefore it can only be assumed you are completely biased in favor of Ireland's bid for your own selfish reasons - and/or completely biased against the Africa bid - and are too closed-minded on the issue to actually debate it like adults.

[rowan]

Just a thought, but I really like the idea of the 2020 football Euros being played at various venues throughout Europe. Could the same idea work for rugby, do you think? So long as they didn't just turn it into another France/British affair. That would really suck. But I wouldn't object to Paris, London & Cardiff featuring again in a European-wide tournament that should also include fixtures in Rome, Bucharest, Tbilisi and perhaps Barcelona, Sochi and Berlin as well. That would be quite something!

[rowan]

Just a thought, but I really like the idea of the 2020 football Euros being played at various venues throughout Europe. Could the same idea work for rugby, do you think? So long as they didn't just turn it into another France/British affair. That would really suck. But I wouldn't object to Paris, London & Cardiff featuring again in a European-wide tournament that should also include fixtures in Rome, Bucharest, Tbilisi and perhaps Barcelona, Sochi and Berlin as well. That would be quite something!

Let's say South Africa gets 2023 for example, Europe could stage an expanded 24-team competition across a dozen countries in 2027 to mark the 40th anniversary of the inagural tournament.

Six groups of four teams in a) France (one game in Germany), b) England/Scotland, c) Ireland/Wales, d) Italy (one game in Spain), e) Romania (one game in Russia) and f) Georgia (one game in Russia).

2nd round: Marseille, Berlin, Manchester, Edinburgh, Belfast, Milan, Barcelona, Sochi.

Quarter finals: Cardiff, Dublin, Tbilisi, Bucharest.

Semi finals: London, Roma

3rd: Bilbao

Final: Paris

[rowan]

I suppose it would be prudent to wait and see how the 2020 Euros goes off first. Another factor to consider is that a football tournament will attract vast legions of fans for every game wherever they are played, but would the much smaller European rugby community be able to generate the same kind of atmosphere for a tournament spread across a dozen nations, in some cases thousands of kilometres apart?

[rowan]

Good luck to them! It's well-overdue...

South Africa’s Sport and Recreation Minister Thulas Nxesi said on Wednesday that his nation have constructed a strong bid to stage the 2023 Rugby World Cup in the Rainbow Nation.

"There's a lot of technical work that is continuing. There are still going to be presentations to the International Rugby Union on the 25th of September in Ireland," he told AllAfrica.com

"There will still be stages where [we] have to go and present, that's why we have put [together] a very solid bid. We have said that our bid is an economic bid. It must be well researched with information from us as government [and] from the side of SARU.

The Minister explained that technical level processes are underway by South Africa, who last hosted the showpiece event in 1995, prior to the announcement of which country will host the World Cup is made on 15 November.

[Digby]

Watching the news last night I think KLF might have weighed in on this, damned if I would work out what they meant though.

[rowan]

KLF ??

[rowan]

I suppose it would be prudent to wait and see how the 2020 Euros goes off first. Another factor to consider is that a football tournament will attract vast legions of fans for every game wherever they are played, but would the much smaller European rugby community be able to generate the same kind of atmosphere for a tournament spread across a dozen nations, in some cases thousands of kilometres apart?

None the less, just for fun:

Group A (Georgia, 1 game in Russia)

New Zealand v Geo @ Tbilisi, Sat
Tonga v Rus @ Sochi, Sat

Georgia v Ton @ Tbilisi, Tue
Russia v NZ @ Kutaisi, Wed

NZ v Ton @ Btumi, Sat
Geo v Rus @ Tbilisi, Sun

Group B (Romania, 1 game in Russia)

Samoa v Uru @ Sochi, Fri
South Africa v Rom @ Bucharest, Sat

Romania v Uru @ Bucharest, Tue
Sam v SA @ Cluj, Wed

Sam v Rom @ Bucharest, Sat
Uru v SA @ Timisoara, Sun

Group C (Italy, 1 game in Spain)

Australia v Fij @ Genoa, Fri
Italy v Spa @ Rome, Sat

Fiji v Ita @ Rome, Tue
Spain v Aus @ Milan, Wed

Aus v Ita @ Rome, Sat
Fij v Spa @ Barcelona, Sun

Group D (France, 1 game in Germany)

France v Jap @ Paris, Fri
Argentina v Ken @ Marseilles, Sat

Japan v Arg @ Toulouse, Tue
Kenya v Fra @ Bordeaux, Wed

Jap v Ken @ Heidelberg, Sat
Arg v Fra @ Paris, Sun

Group E (England/Scotland)

England v Can @ London, Sat
Scotland v HK @ Edinburgh, Sun

Canada v Sco @ Edinburgh, Wed
Hong Kong v Eng @ Manchester, Thu

Eng v Sco @ London, Sun
Can v HK @ Glasgow, Sun

Group F (Ireland/Wales)

Ireland v USA @ Dublin, Sat
Wales v Nam @ Cardiff, Sun

USA v Wal @ Cardiff, Wed
Namibia v Ire @ Belfast, Thu

USA v Nam at Llanelli, Sun
Ire v Wal at Dublin, Sun

2nd round:

Marseille & Berlin, Thu
Manchester & Edinburgh, Fri
Belfast & Milan, Sat
Madrid & Sochi, Sun.

Quarter finals:

Cardiff, Fri
Dublin & Tbilisi, Sat
Bucharest, Sun.

Semi finals:

London, Sat
Rome, Sun

3rd: Bilbao, Fri

Final: Paris, Sat

[rowan]

Incidentally, the maximum distance involved here - between Ireland & Georgia - is roughly equivalent to the distance between Brisbane & Perth, and also NY & LA, for that matter. So in terms of distances, it's certainly doable.

[rowan]

I also looked at how this might work with a 20-team model. But it quickly became clear it would end up as a Home Unions plus France dominated event once again, and we've already seen too many of those - even if Italy, Romania & Georgia were also involved. Plus, it would have much more the appearance of four separate tournaments taking place at once, up until the playoffs, which are relatively brief in the RWC. So any proposal for a "European Rugby World Cup" should be contingent on a prior agreement to expand to 24 teams. Six groups of four spread across the continent, followed by a second round spread across eight European cities, would be far more in line with the conception of a pan-European tournament. Moreover, it would give one and possibly two more of the potential co-hosts a chance to actually qualifiy.

[Digby]

In the Times today it's reported that France are now offering £150 million to host the event, which is £30 million more than the minimum fee being demanded by the IRB. Does rather suggest France's bid is someway behind Ireland's, but that is a lot of extra money to turn down.

France are making the claim the extra money is vital to defend the global game and to prevent an elite of 3-4 teams, that being the case if France's bid is successful I wonder what % of that extra £30 million will go to tier 1 sides?

[rowan]

The decision isn't far away now, this November, I believe, and it's going to be a tight race, that's for sure, with 3 perfectly viable offers on the table.

I think if it comes down to practical decision they will need to weigh the financial benefits of a French bid with the sheer enthusiasm of the Irish bid and the stadia and environment of the south African bid.

Ethically they should also take into consideration that South Africa is bidding for the 4th time since hosting a wonderful event at the end of the amateur era, while Ireland is a first-time bidder, and France hosted as recently as a decade ago.

Realistically, it all depends on the wheelings and dealings behind the scenes on the World Rugby council, and the fact two European nations are bidding may end up playing into South Africa's hands.

SA also upbeat about their prospects:

South Africa has happy memories of hosting the Rugby World Cup - winning the tournament for the first time in 1995 on home ground. The bid presentation include details on the economic impact of hosting the event.

An economic impact assessment suggests South Africa stands to receive R27.3-billion in direct, indirect and induced spend.

Some of the bid headlines include a project 2.9-million tickets to be sold.

ALSO READ: SA Rugby submit 2023 World Cup bid

The bid also proposes that the country's favourable exchange rate means fans can tour South Africa with their teams for several weeks - following their teams from the pool to knockout stages of the tournament.

The overnight flight from Europe is being used as a positive for sponsors and corporate travellers as is the country's lucrative broadcast time-zone.

Other highlights of the bid include eight world cup ready stadia - including the iconic Moses Mabhida Stadium - all of which were used during the 2010 Soccer World Cup.

The host nation will be announced in November.

https://www.ecr.co.za/news/news/2023-ru ... -billions/

[rowan]

Anybody going?

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/tickets

Japan 2019 is set to be a once-in-a-lifetime experience and fans will soon be able to plan their tournament experience with the announcement of details of how, where and when to purchase tickets.

There are three routes: ticket sales through the official ticketing website; official supporter tours for domestic and travelling fans and official hospitality. Details of the programme will be published soon.

November 2017: Full ticketing programme announcement, including prices
January 2018: Supporter tour packages go on sale via official travel agents via www.rugbyworldcup.com/supportertours
January 2018: Priority sales open for Japan rugby community, host cities and Front Row members (Sign-up now to receive the official fan newsletter for Rugby World Cup)
February 2018: Hospitality packages go on sale via www.rugbyworldcup.com/hospitality
September 2018: General ticket sales begin via an application process
January 2019: Remaining tickets go on sale on a first-come, first-served basis

[rowan]

[rowan]

Seems the only ones who really want the World Cup in Ireland are the Home Unions, though they might have cut a deal with the NZRFU to get their support. Will that be enough? I'm not so sure. But I certainly agree with this:

Dear Editor,

The World Cup should return to South Africa, a traditional rugby heartland and super power of the game, with the second largest player community in the world, according to World Rugby’s own statistics, and the second most successful international record behind New Zealand.

South Africa hosted a magnificent 32-game World Cup in 1995; one that truly put the tournament on the map and was credited with assisting the integration process at the dawn of the post-Apartheid era. But an entire generation of Africans have grown up with no memory of that event, and almost three decades will have passed by 2023.

Meanwhile, Australia, New Zealand and England have all hosted for a second time, and the remaining foundation members of World Rugby have also been involved again in the professional era - Wales on four occasions!

The other candidates to host the tenth installment are France and Ireland. In either case that would mean a third straight World Cup in the Northern Hemisphere, when it is the Southern Hemisphere which dominates the tournament. It would also entail a return to the same corner of Europe for the fifth time in ten tournaments, making a mockery of the sport’s global pretentions.

France hosted as recently as a decade ago, and has already staged matches in three separate tournaments for a total of 58 games (third most behind New Zealand and Australia). Ireland has under five million people, only one major metropolitan centre, and only one major venue designed for rugby. It has staged a dozen World Cup matches over two tournaments, this despite having never reached its semi-final stages.

South Africa, a two-time champion, is bidding for the fourth straight occasion, its three previous attempts having been unsuccessful. This despite a vast array of huge stadia spread around dozens of cities in a vast nation of 56 million inhabitants with an ideal climate. Furthermore, geographically it is practically the antipodes of 2019 hosts Japan.

World Rugby seems almost to have lost faith in South Africa during the professional era, perhaps due to ongoing issues involved with the integration process. But surely it recognises this owes to South Africa’s unique situation as a multicultural society with a large non-white population. In this respect it stands alone among rugby’s top tier nations, all of which have European-dominated populations, and it is for this reason, precisely, that rugby needs south Africa.

Given the outstanding success of the 1995 World Cup, the best thing the game’s governing body could do in terms of its self-proclaimed ‘global’ agenda would be to revive those wonderful scenes by returning its showpiece event to the rugby heartland at the base of the African continent. Probably the worst thing it could do would be to reject the SARFU’s bid yet again. That would send out the worst possible message.



http://sobserver.ws/en/24_09_2017/lette ... ld-Cup.htm

[rowan]

I would have supposed that for New Zealanders the attraction of a World Cup in South Africa is that it offers an unparalleled challenge. Believe it or not, the All Blacks still have a losing record in the republic overall. In fact, it is the only country in the world where they do have a losing record. & of course they were beaten in an epic World Cup final there at the end of the amateur era. 2015 marked the first time the All Blacks had won the tournament outside of their own country. If they could win one in South Africa that would undoubtedly rank is their greatest achievement and finally lay the ghosts of 95 to rest.