Nightynight wrote:
Halfpenny? But speed wise, halfpenny hasn't got the afterburners anymore, so still a try. the Welsh players to left were effectively almost held static by the 2 passes Cuthbert was static and left with a gap either side of him in effect with a player running at him at speed, Hobson's choice at that point.
If the Welsh players had run forward closing the gap to England's line and cuthbert had closed on daily before the pass, but that would have meant the Welsh players were reading the play, (the play England had been trying to use all match). Which is my point, they weren't as a group and just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean.
IMO George north would have not even got a hand to Daily....
Halfpenny is t that slow. But he is an intelligent player so might have made a better fist if the attempted tackle. Defence isn't Northa strong point so I don't think anyone on here would suggest that we would have done any better. North might have offered more with ball in hand than Cuthbert did, although north is currently living on borrowed time as he hasn't been hitting the heights of form either.
Halfpenny! This is straw man argument.... halfpenny wasn't there, the option would have been north. This is just diverting from the other defensive issues that led to that try. Blaming individuals and the coach, sorry your players need to have a look at why THEY lost the game... lost being the operative word before they will move on.
The coach us blamed for daft substitutions and picking out of form players.
Cuthbert is out of form. Other players may or may not have made that tackle, but Cuthbert did very little in the game and was by far our worst performing player. He needs time away from the squad.
Cuthbert shouldn't have had to make that tackle as tge ball should have been well into the stands from the turnover. That team failure, acknowledged by all of us in here put Cuthbert in that position.
One way or the other I think the point you're making over and over has been addressed.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:50 pm
by Nightynight
Really, where have you all looked at the other issues then?
All I read is coach & cuthbert and repeated, watch the try again, Davies under pressure, Welsh players jogging into position, Biggar giving up the chase.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:03 pm
by Sandydragon
Nightynight wrote:Really, where have you all looked at the other issues then?
All I read is coach & cuthbert and repeated, watch the try again, Davies under pressure, Welsh players jogging into position, Biggar giving up the chase.
The dreadful kick by Davies was mentioned very early on. And no one is blaming howler for missing tackles. Looking at scrumC now, I don't think Biggar had a hope of getting there.
Ultimately this is about Howley picking a player who is badly off form and looked it. Before the match most of us wanted one of the inform youngsters to be given a go. Nothing from yesterday's match has changed my opinion there.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:04 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
Nightynight wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Nightynight wrote:
Halfpenny? But speed wise, halfpenny hasn't got the afterburners anymore, so still a try. the Welsh players to left were effectively almost held static by the 2 passes Cuthbert was static and left with a gap either side of him in effect with a player running at him at speed, Hobson's choice at that point.
If the Welsh players had run forward closing the gap to England's line and cuthbert had closed on daily before the pass, but that would have meant the Welsh players were reading the play, (the play England had been trying to use all match). Which is my point, they weren't as a group and just blaming cuthbert is a bit mean.
IMO George north would have not even got a hand to Daily....
Halfpenny is t that slow. But he is an intelligent player so might have made a better fist if the attempted tackle. Defence isn't Northa strong point so I don't think anyone on here would suggest that we would have done any better. North might have offered more with ball in hand than Cuthbert did, although north is currently living on borrowed time as he hasn't been hitting the heights of form either.
Halfpenny! This is straw man argument.... halfpenny wasn't there, the option would have been north. This is just diverting from the other defensive issues that led to that try. Blaming individuals and the coach, sorry your players need to have a look at why THEY lost the game... lost being the operative word before they will move on.
It's not a straw man. You said you thought it would have been a try no matter who had been in Cuthbert's position. In response I suggested someone else who I think would have had a decent chance of stopping it had he been in Cuthbert's position.
The game is done. The problem now is that nothing has been learned. So moving on, I don't expect a whole lot of improvement.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:10 pm
by Nightynight
Was halfpenny picked on the wing?
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:11 pm
by Sandydragon
Nightynight wrote:Was halfpenny picked on the wing?
No Cuthbert was. Who is badly out of form and even when on form isn't the strongest defensively.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:15 pm
by Nightynight
Sandydragon wrote:
Nightynight wrote:Was halfpenny picked on the wing?
No Cuthbert was. Who is badly out of form and even when on form isn't the strongest defensively.
And the option was north, you have said yourself, defence not his best skill. So the halfpenny option is still straw man argument reality as he wouldn't have been there. Might as well say jiffy would have made the tackle if he'd been playing. It's just daft what if.. stuff
Whilst continuing to ignore the other actions that led to the situation
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:25 pm
by Nightynight
Sandydragon wrote:
Nightynight wrote:Really, where have you all looked at the other issues then?
All I read is coach & cuthbert and repeated, watch the try again, Davies under pressure, Welsh players jogging into position, Biggar giving up the chase.
The dreadful kick by Davies was mentioned very early on. And no one is blaming howler for missing tackles. Looking at scrumC now, I don't think Biggar had a hope of getting there.
Ultimately this is about Howley picking a player who is badly off form and looked it. Before the match most of us wanted one of the inform youngsters to be given a go. Nothing from yesterday's match has changed my opinion there.
Selective. Watch the game again and watch what the other players were doing across the park. The pundit comment on wales team switching off is also valid.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:48 pm
by loudnconfident
I felt a bit sorry for Cuthbert. Apparently North was in the official Programme and all. Far better to have stood North down and allowed Cuthbert (or someone else) to prepare properly. And he (as many Welsh posters stated) seemed out of form and confidence. Its a tough fixture and Wales' coaches should have been more sensitive. (and I can remember how Matthew Tait was treated by England in '05)
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:48 pm
by Sandydragon
loudnconfident wrote:I felt a bit sorry for Cuthbert. Apparently North was in the official Programme and all. Far better to have stood North down and allowed Cuthbert (or someone else) to prepare properly. And he (as many Welsh posters stated) seemed out of form and confidence. Its a tough fixture and Wales' coaches should have been more sensitive. (and I can remember how Matthew Tait was treated by England in '05)
The call should have been made earlier, I agree it's not fair. The welsh management have form here in playing a player who is struggling. Priestland was all over the place for a season, with Biggar clearly in better form, before he was replaced. I don't argue that Priestland was able to get the backline moving in a way Biggar couldn't, but you can only keep faith in a poorly playing player for so long before it seems like cruel and unusual punishment. You also need to reward players who are doing well for their clubs, or else they get demotivated.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:08 pm
by Nightynight
Nightynight wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Nightynight wrote:Really, where have you all looked at the other issues then?
All I read is coach & cuthbert and repeated, watch the try again, Davies under pressure, Welsh players jogging into position, Biggar giving up the chase.
The dreadful kick by Davies was mentioned very early on. And no one is blaming howler for missing tackles. Looking at scrumC now, I don't think Biggar had a hope of getting there.
Ultimately this is about Howley picking a player who is badly off form and looked it. Before the match most of us wanted one of the inform youngsters to be given a go. Nothing from yesterday's match has changed my opinion there.
Selective. Watch the game again and watch what the other players were doing across the park. The pundit comment on wales team switching off is also valid.
Footnote. It's Jamie Roberts who stood still jumping up and down doing nothing, like a rabbit in the headlights, cuthbert was already moving trying to cut Daily off at least. Farrell could have just show & go'd and gone between the two of them and then passed to Daily. You really should watch it again
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:32 am
by Sandydragon
Nightynight wrote:
Nightynight wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
The dreadful kick by Davies was mentioned very early on. And no one is blaming howler for missing tackles. Looking at scrumC now, I don't think Biggar had a hope of getting there.
Ultimately this is about Howley picking a player who is badly off form and looked it. Before the match most of us wanted one of the inform youngsters to be given a go. Nothing from yesterday's match has changed my opinion there.
Selective. Watch the game again and watch what the other players were doing across the park. The pundit comment on wales team switching off is also valid.
Footnote. It's Jamie Roberts who stood still jumping up and down doing nothing, like a rabbit in the headlights, cuthbert was already moving trying to cut Daily off at least. Farrell could have just show & go'd and gone between the two of them and then passed to Daily. You really should watch it again
Roberts did move to close a huge gap. That probably didn't help a player like Cuthbert who is defensively weak but that's the point we are making. Cuthbert is a weak defender and he is off form. Someone else who was inform may have done better, or at least offer ed more during the match.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:37 am
by Sandydragon
And this is the same Roberts who is covering the threat from another English player who was running a line that would have seen him cut back inside?
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:28 am
by Sandydragon
And the same clip on YouTube shows Biggar cover the width of the pitch so I'm not sure where you get the idea that he gave up. It's pretty clear that in his sweeping role he was covering g the potential inside break and then sprints to cover Cuthbert, but can't close the distance.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:52 am
by Nightynight
Sandydragon wrote:And this is the same Roberts who is covering the threat from another English player who was running a line that would have seen him cut back inside?
? What player running a line ... Faz just continued to run after passing the ball. Roberts should have closed the gap, cutting towards Farrell's left shoulder putting himself between Farrell and Daily, he had 3 Welsh shirts coming up from behind to his left. Farrell wasn't going anywhere on that side.
The England player to the immediate left of Roberts was standing static, they looked like they were holding hands at one point
Roberts didn't do anything other than act like a traffic cone.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:21 am
by Nightynight
Farrell' s only other options were
pass right/contact and both leading to ruck/recycle or show/go and run directly at culthbert delaying the pass to Daily.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:24 am
by loudnconfident
Sandydragon wrote:
The call should have been made earlier, I agree it's not fair. The welsh management have form here in playing a player who is struggling. Priestland was all over the place for a season, with Biggar clearly in better form, before he was replaced. I don't argue that Priestland was able to get the backline moving in a way Biggar couldn't, but you can only keep faith in a poorly playing player for so long before it seems like cruel and unusual punishment. You also need to reward players who are doing well for their clubs, or else they get demotivated.
And allow those players not in form to go back to their clubs and get back to form, out of the international spotlight. It seemed as if Cuthbert was like me at the Prom - the girls would go for anyone else but if sickness let them down and there was no alternative I'd get a txt at 19:45.. As you say, poor man management at the best of times. I was'nt at the game, but reports say Cuthbert was'nt even in the Programme (he must have been as a replacement, even if North was in the starting XV)
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:29 am
by loudnconfident
Thx for clip Nightynight. I noted BBC's Jonathan Davies' despairing groan at 3.34 when his namesake kicked infield. he could see the danger way before anyone else.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:38 am
by Nightynight
Sandydragon wrote:And the same clip on YouTube shows Biggar cover the width of the pitch so I'm not sure where you get the idea that he gave up. It's pretty clear that in his sweeping role he was covering g the potential inside break and then sprints to cover Cuthbert, but can't close the distance.
Last 20yards, fair enough to Biggar, the hand waving and shouting angry face seem to be directed at the other Welsh players.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:47 am
by Nightynight
loudnconfident wrote:Thx for clip Nightynight. I noted BBC's Jonathan Davies' despairing groan at 3.34 when his namesake kicked infield. he could see the danger way before anyone else.
Which is exactly the point... the Welsh players weren't reacting fast enough themselves. In the clip Roberts was looking to his left enough to know he had enough support to run at Farrell.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:02 am
by wayneha50
to lighten the mood, very funny
ps. Howley does belong in an ice cream van in Tenby
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:09 am
by WaspInWales
wayneha50 wrote:
to lighten the mood, very funny
ps. Howley does belong in an ice cream van in Tenby
Not quite as polished as the Bad Lip Reading videos on YouTube but still bloody funny!!!
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:13 am
by Renniks
There's a moment just when Farrell commits Roberts, and passes the ball, where Cuthbert is far too narrow and takes two slow steps out, presumably to allow him to use the touchline as an additional player… Everytime I watch it it just appears to be a calamity of errors from Wales, Roberts needs to come up quicker, Cuthbert needs to be wider, England shouldn't score that easily. Thank you though
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:43 am
by Nightynight
I think this is done to death.
1 Too many Welsh players in the last ruck
2 a hole the size of a mini bus on both sides despite the Welsh number for England forwards to run through at Davies. Yep a Shiite kick in field.
3 slow reaction from Wales in general apart from Dan. B running across the field ... see tip's.jogging along
4 Roberts does nothing
5 culthbert misses the last tackle
If 1-4 hadn't happened to put it down to a last gasp tackle? I maintain it's a bit harsh just to blame cuthbert or coach in these circumstances. Bearing in mind how many caps, grand slams winners, lion's touring players we are talking about here.
Re: Team for England
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:46 am
by Hooky
Sod the inquest over the kick and England's try. I feel better than I ever have after losing against England. Wales played better than I've seen them play for a long long time. Biggar was tremendous. Need to ram it home against Scotland
As you say, poor man management at the best of times. I was'nt at the game, but reports say Cuthbert was'nt even in the Programme (he must have been as a replacement, even if North was in the starting XV)