RugbyRebels

cashead wrote:FPP is a clearly flawed system, so why bother with it? Is there no will to have it changed in England, or something?

They wont have a bar of it, its not even worth trying to explain the flaws to people. The token response is along the lines of "fix the boundaries and it will be fine", ignoring well documented inherent flaws regardless of boundary representation. They even complain about low voter turnout but when you tell them that is a known consequence of FPP they instead tell you its because people are lazy.

Funnily enough it reminds me of the plastic note discussion, I've spent the last 6 years saying how much better plastic notes are only to be told I didn't know what I was talking about. They recently got a plastic fiver and now can't believe they ever had cotton/paper ones in the first place :/

Its a country (union? whatever) of traditions, so changing anything is tantamount to turning a oil tanker in a narrow pass.

Digby wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

Digby wrote:
It'd hold for Scotland too in the longer term.

It should, but doesn't. We've been a one party state for as long as I can remember. For years it was so under labour, but now they've fallen out of favour and it's the snp. We don't really do plurality, not enough symbolism in it for us.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Does one party being replaced by another suggest it's that much of a one party state? And perhaps the issue (or complaint) here is about FPP given the SNP have 98% of the seats and had 50% of the actual vote.

It clearly indicates the opposite. Calling Scotland a one party state because 56/59 Westminster MPs elected under FPP are from a single party is intellectually lazy, and possibly bordering on plain stupidity. It is a nice soundbite, though, I'll give you that.

The definition of a one party state excludes the possibility that other parties can be elected, or at the least severely limits their scope. That is clearly not the case in Scotland, and never has been.

As for "not doing plurality". Has the situation at Holyrood completely fallen out of your view Donny? That's "plurality" in action - a minority administration that has to cut deals to get anything done.

BBD wrote:I think Sturgeon has over played her hand in the last few weeks and will suffer at the election because of it.

I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

kk67 wrote:

BBD wrote:I think Sturgeon has over played her hand in the last few weeks and will suffer at the election because of it.

I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

OptimisticJock wrote:

kk67 wrote:

BBD wrote:I think Sturgeon has over played her hand in the last few weeks and will suffer at the election because of it.

I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

Yes, defending a turd fest isn't easy.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

OptimisticJock wrote:

kk67 wrote:

BBD wrote:I think Sturgeon has over played her hand in the last few weeks and will suffer at the election because of it.

I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

The more accurate the accusations, the more May starts to fluff her lines.
He was going after her over the triple-lock on pensions today and the atmosphere in the House changed instantly. Up to that moment it had been lots of fun on the Tory benches.....that evaporated quickly.

IDS is such a prick. Seeing him and Jeremy Cunt sitting on the benches should turn the stomach of any free thinker.

OptimisticJock wrote:

kk67 wrote:

BBD wrote:I think Sturgeon has over played her hand in the last few weeks and will suffer at the election because of it.

I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

The job of opposition MPs is to call the Government to account. Of course, you can always diminish this role by saying that all they do is "make accusations".
And then you can accuse them of running a "one-party state" purely because they got more MPs elected in Scotland than anyone else.

What is it you actually want? More yes-men to support the Tories?

I can't frankly see the point of a TV debate which features the SNP party, or a good few others. The last debate featured far too many people, and it'd be more useful to have the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems in a national debate, and then separate debates to feature the various national parties for those nations for anyone who wants it

I also can't see why May would be concerned about Angus Vs she has nothing to gain from a debate, a few jibes she's chicken will hurt a lot less than tripping up badly in a debate.

Digby wrote:I can't frankly see the point of a TV debate which features the SNP party, or a good few others. The last debate featured far too many people, and it'd be more useful to have the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems in a national debate, and then separate debates to feature the various national parties for those nations for anyone who wants it

I also can't see why May would be concerned about Angus Vs she has nothing to gain from a debate, a few jibes she's chicken will hurt a lot less than tripping up badly in a debate.

Given that the Grey lobby are almost as powerful/more powerful than the business lobby she's got plenty to be frightened about. If Robertson is correct, and the reaction from the Tory benches suggest he is on the money, then Tory plans to scrap the triple-lock could be big trouble.

May has everything to lose by a TV debate. She doesn't have to do it and wont as frankly she isn't up to much. Her PMQs efforts are pretty woeful and give you an idea of just how wooden she would be in a live tv debate.
we should be grateful. How many times can we hear about her "strong and stable" leadership before hurling something at the set, or simply giving up on the will to live.

Digby wrote:I can't frankly see the point of a TV debate which features the SNP party, or a good few others. The last debate featured far too many people, and it'd be more useful to have the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems in a national debate, and then separate debates to feature the various national parties for those nations for anyone who wants it

I also can't see why May would be concerned about Angus Vs she has nothing to gain from a debate, a few jibes she's chicken will hurt a lot less than tripping up badly in a debate.

Well, either it's a UK election or it isn't. If you start marginalising MPs, representing UK constituencies that happen to be outside of England, what does that say about scope of the election?

Stones of granite wrote:

Digby wrote:I can't frankly see the point of a TV debate which features the SNP party, or a good few others. The last debate featured far too many people, and it'd be more useful to have the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems in a national debate, and then separate debates to feature the various national parties for those nations for anyone who wants it

I also can't see why May would be concerned about Angus Vs she has nothing to gain from a debate, a few jibes she's chicken will hurt a lot less than tripping up badly in a debate.

Well, either it's a UK election or it isn't. If you start marginalising MPs, representing UK constituencies that happen to be outside of England, what does that say about scope of the election?

It says that English rightwing MP's think they have a God-given right to gerrymander the kingdom. Which is nothing new.
It's disgusting,....but nothing new.
It's sickening to watch all of those country bumpkins with a public school education pretending they actually care about the political future of the nation.

looks like the SNP fluffers are out in force today.

OptimisticJock wrote:

kk67 wrote:

BBD wrote:I think Sturgeon has over played her hand in the last few weeks and will suffer at the election because of it.

I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

Here, Baz, me and you are too intellectually lazy, bordering on being plain stupid, to make statements like this. Know your place, son. [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

kk67 wrote:
I've been blydi impressed by Angus Robertson in the last few months. He, more than any of the other leaders, has the oratory skills to rip May a new one and she is clearly terrified of him.
I suspect her refusal to do the tv debates is mostly down to trying to avoid him.

It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

Here, Baz, me and you are too intellectually lazy, bordering on being plain stupid, to make statements like this. Know your place, son. [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I'm so intellectually lazy that my disdain for the SNP means I'm automatically a Tory yes man.

OptimisticJock wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote: It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

Here, Baz, me and you are too intellectually lazy, bordering on being plain stupid, to make statements like this. Know your place, son. [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I'm so intellectually lazy that my disdain for the SNP means I'm automatically a Tory yes man.

Wrong man. -->UKIP

Edit: it's a joke
Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

OptimisticJock wrote: looks like the SNP fluffers are out in force today.

Welsh born,.....lived my life in London and Liverpool.

OptimisticJock wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote: It's really easy when all you have to do is make accusations.

Here, Baz, me and you are too intellectually lazy, bordering on being plain stupid, to make statements like this. Know your place, son. [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I'm so intellectually lazy that my disdain for the SNP means I'm automatically a Tory yes man.

I feel your pain bruv but I is too fick to no wot to do

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Stones of granite wrote:

Digby wrote:I can't frankly see the point of a TV debate which features the SNP party, or a good few others. The last debate featured far too many people, and it'd be more useful to have the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems in a national debate, and then separate debates to feature the various national parties for those nations for anyone who wants it

I also can't see why May would be concerned about Angus Vs she has nothing to gain from a debate, a few jibes she's chicken will hurt a lot less than tripping up badly in a debate.

Well, either it's a UK election or it isn't. If you start marginalising MPs, representing UK constituencies that happen to be outside of England, what does that say about scope of the election?

That most of the country doesn't care.

Actually I don't mind if they have the same expanded group on stage, I just only want to watch one with 3 party leaders. If however the SNP want to put up candidates in every constituency in the UK then I'd revise my stance.

kk67 wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote: looks like the SNP fluffers are out in force today.

Welsh born,.....lived my life in London and Liverpool.

Erm... congratulations/commiserations/Baz doesn't care

Delete as applicable.

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

Donny osmond wrote: Here, Baz, me and you are too intellectually lazy, bordering on being plain stupid, to make statements like this. Know your place, son. [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I'm so intellectually lazy that my disdain for the SNP means I'm automatically a Tory yes man.

I feel your pain bruv but I is too fick to no wot to do

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Dinnae even ken how to spell X

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

Donny osmond wrote: Here, Baz, me and you are too intellectually lazy, bordering on being plain stupid, to make statements like this. Know your place, son. [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I'm so intellectually lazy that my disdain for the SNP means I'm automatically a Tory yes man.

I feel your pain bruv but I is too fick to no wot to do.

Ahhhh. Something we can all agree on.

Digby wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:

Digby wrote:I can't frankly see the point of a TV debate which features the SNP party, or a good few others. The last debate featured far too many people, and it'd be more useful to have the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems in a national debate, and then separate debates to feature the various national parties for those nations for anyone who wants it

I also can't see why May would be concerned about Angus Vs she has nothing to gain from a debate, a few jibes she's chicken will hurt a lot less than tripping up badly in a debate.

Well, either it's a UK election or it isn't. If you start marginalising MPs, representing UK constituencies that happen to be outside of England, what does that say about scope of the election?

That most of the country doesn't care.

Actually I don't mind if they have the same expanded group on stage, I just only want to watch one with 3 party leaders. If however the SNP want to put up candidates in every constituency in the UK then I'd revise my stance.

Pretty much this. Let's have an SNP manifesto with their plans for the UK as a whole and let them put up candidates across the country and then I'd happily have them in the leaders debates. Not that I want debates in the first place.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Stones of granite wrote: Well, either it's a UK election or it isn't. If you start marginalising MPs, representing UK constituencies that happen to be outside of England, what does that say about scope of the election?

That most of the country doesn't care.

Actually I don't mind if they have the same expanded group on stage, I just only want to watch one with 3 party leaders. If however the SNP want to put up candidates in every constituency in the UK then I'd revise my stance.

Pretty much this. Let's have an SNP manifesto with their plans for the UK as a whole and let them put up candidates across the country and then I'd happily have them in the leaders debates. Not that I want debates in the first place.

Fair enough. Don't be surprised, then, if the SNP response is that they are being shut out of what is supposed to be a UK election.

Stones of granite wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:
That most of the country doesn't care.

Actually I don't mind if they have the same expanded group on stage, I just only want to watch one with 3 party leaders. If however the SNP want to put up candidates in every constituency in the UK then I'd revise my stance.

Pretty much this. Let's have an SNP manifesto with their plans for the UK as a whole and let them put up candidates across the country and then I'd happily have them in the leaders debates. Not that I want debates in the first place.

Fair enough. Don't be surprised, then, if the SNP response is that they are being shut out of what is supposed to be a UK election.

UK election is the key. Are they a UK wide party? It's not an anti-SNP stance for me. I say the same about Plaid Cymru, the DUP etc and I'd say the same if a South West Nationalist Party or Yorkshire Independence Party sent MP's to Westminster but had no UK wide platform.
In a nutshell, if you don't field enough candidates to form a majority government then why should you be invited to a leaders debate.