Lions Attrition - update.

[J Dory]

You talk purdy.

[morepork]

It's cos of my purdy mouth.

[Numbers]

If you see one of your players sparked out, you don't put them back on the pitch. If an international coach in the 21st century is not aware that loss of consciousness equals manifest neurological abnormalities for up to one year with concrete evidence of compromised cerebral glucose metabolism, then they are dangerously out of touch. Add repeat episodes into that equation, and well, fuck...

The manager will go on the advice of the doctor, the doctor has paramount control over this and quite rightly.

[Mikey Brown]

A doctor does not tell him to put a player back on.

[morepork]

Yeah, that's my point. The decision to put him back on is just wrong in this day and age. Badly out of touch.

[Numbers]

A doctor does not tell him to put a player back on.

No that's right, I'm not sure how to make this any clearer, the doctor decides if the player is fit to return to the field of play.

[morepork]

A doctor does not tell him to put a player back on.

No that's right, I'm not sure how to make this any clearer, the doctor decides if the player is fit to return to the field of play.

Then the doctor is wrong or the directives coming from world rugby are not strong enough. Lawes gets knocked out, plays the next week, gets subject to additional head trauma, then plays on. That is fucking massively irresponsible.

[Mikey Brown]

It is clear. If the coach has seen a player get knocked out then the decision whether to put them back on or not does not need to come down to what the doctor says.

[morepork]

Was that the upshot of the George North/Mallinder thing?

[Numbers]

It is clear. If the coach has seen a player get knocked out then the decision whether to put them back on or not does not need to come down to what the doctor says.

The HIA is nothing to do with the coach, it's performed by the doctor, if the doctor passes the player fit to continue then that is the responsibility of the doctor not the coach, it's quite simple.

Do you believe that everytime somone is knocked out that they have concussion?

What if you are knocked out by a blow to the jaw for example, the head trauma would not be concussive.

[Which Tyler]

The HIA is nothing to do with the coach, it's performed by the doctor, if the doctor passes the player fit to continue then that is the responsibility of the doctor not the coach, it's quite simple.

Do you believe that everytime somone is knocked out that they have concussion?

What if you are knocked out by a blow to the jaw for example, the head trauma would not be concussive.

Really bad example, as that can very easily be concussive. If someone is KOd they are considered tobe concussed until proven otherwise - and you cannot prove otherwise within the time-frame of a rugby match

Was that the upshot of the George North/Mallinder thing?

Nope, the upshot of that is that if the coach/Dr is REALLY unlucky, they might be asked not to do it again; but no sanctions will be imposed on the coach or the Dr. Oh, and "a poor wifi signal" is all the excuse needed to lie on the form.
The upshot of the Matu'u incident (30/04/17 Glos vs Bath) is that if there's no rugby magazine show that week, then it won't even get investigated, let alone sanctioned.
ETA:

[Numbers]

The HIA is nothing to do with the coach, it's performed by the doctor, if the doctor passes the player fit to continue then that is the responsibility of the doctor not the coach, it's quite simple.

Do you believe that everytime somone is knocked out that they have concussion?

What if you are knocked out by a blow to the jaw for example, the head trauma would not be concussive.

Really bad example, as that can very easily be concussive. If someone is KOd they are considered tobe concussed until proven otherwise - and you cannot prove otherwise within the time-frame of a rugby match

So being caught on the sweet spot of the jaw can cause brain injury, other than when they land I'm not sure how.

[Which Tyler]

So being caught on the sweet spot of the jaw can cause brain injury, other than when they land I'm not sure how.

Bones are hard - they transfer forces really rather well.
There is no magic spot on the jaw that causes unscousness if hit. If you know of one, please publish in the scientific press, it'll be the anatomical discovery of the century.

Please note, you can also suffer concussion with no impact to the head at all. The impact is between brain and the inside of the cranial vault, NOT between the cranium and ANOther object.
Get the head hyperextending (or hyperflexing); especially if there's a slight degree of rotation &/ traction; and you are not unlikeliy to suffer concussion - be that in whiplash, or a punch to the chin.

[Numbers]

So being caught on the sweet spot of the jaw can cause brain injury, other than when they land I'm not sure how.

Bones are hard - they transfer forces really rather well.
There is no magic spot on the jaw that causes unscousness if hit. If you know of one, please publish in the scientific press, it'll be the anatomical discovery of the century.

Please note, you can also suffer concussion with no impact to the head at all. The impact is between brain and the inside of the cranial vault, NOT between the cranium and ANOther object.
Get the head hyperextending (or hyperflexing); especially if there's a slight degree of rotation &/ traction; and you are not unlikeliy to suffer concussion - be that in whiplash, or a punch to the chin.

Yeah I know that, but surely the impact would be worse if directly to the cranium?

[Mikey Brown]

It is clear. If the coach has seen a player get knocked out then the decision whether to put them back on or not does not need to come down to what the doctor says.

The HIA is nothing to do with the coach, it's performed by the doctor, if the doctor passes the player fit to continue then that is the responsibility of the doctor not the coach, it's quite simple.

Do you believe that everytime somone is knocked out that they have concussion?

What if you are knocked out by a blow to the jaw for example, the head trauma would not be concussive.

If the player is obviously knocked out it should not matter whether he passes the HIA or not, the head coach should make the change. You keep saying it's clear but you don't seem to be understanding this incredibly simple point.

WhichT obviously knows more of the details on the second point but yes, there's surely a risk of concussion in most cases where a player is knocked unconscious?

The last sentence is just totally ridiculous.

[morepork]

The HIA is nothing to do with the coach, it's performed by the doctor, if the doctor passes the player fit to continue then that is the responsibility of the doctor not the coach, it's quite simple.

Do you believe that everytime somone is knocked out that they have concussion?

What if you are knocked out by a blow to the jaw for example, the head trauma would not be concussive.

Really bad example, as that can very easily be concussive. If someone is KOd they are considered tobe concussed until proven otherwise - and you cannot prove otherwise within the time-frame of a rugby match

So being caught on the sweet spot of the jaw can cause brain injury, other than when they land I'm not sure how.

OK. Any traumatically induced structural injury or physiological disruption of brain function as a result of an external force is by definition a brain injury. Everytime someone loses consciousness, there is by definition an insult to the brain. You think your nose controls motor function?

[Which Tyler]

Please note, you can also suffer concussion with no impact to the head at all. The impact is between brain and the inside of the cranial vault, NOT between the cranium and ANOther object.
Get the head hyperextending (or hyperflexing); especially if there's a slight degree of rotation &/ traction; and you are not unlikeliy to suffer concussion - be that in whiplash, or a punch to the chin.

Yeah I know that, but surely the impact would be worse if directly to the cranium?

Not really, it's much more about the direction of the force; as said above; a (even slight) degree of rotation or (even slighter) degree of traction has a massive impact on the risk of concussion; the amount of deceleration allowed by the joint of the jaw... barely any difference.

[morepork]

Note to self:

Never go to a Welsh hospital to be treated for trauma.

[Numbers]

Please note, you can also suffer concussion with no impact to the head at all. The impact is between brain and the inside of the cranial vault, NOT between the cranium and ANOther object.
Get the head hyperextending (or hyperflexing); especially if there's a slight degree of rotation &/ traction; and you are not unlikeliy to suffer concussion - be that in whiplash, or a punch to the chin.

Yeah I know that, but surely the impact would be worse if directly to the cranium?

Not really, it's much more about the direction of the force; as said above; a (even slight) degree of rotation or (even slighter) degree of traction has a massive impact on the risk of concussion; the amount of deceleration allowed by the joint of the jaw... barely any difference.

I sit corrected.

[morepork]

Numbers....for a really horrible example of superficially "indirect" concussive trauma, think of shaking neonates.

[Sandydragon]

Note to self:

Never go to a Welsh hospital.

Fixed that for you.

[Which Tyler]

Note to self:

Never go to Wales.

Fixed that for you.

FTFTFY

[Galfon]

2 of the more physical backs are homebound..both originally reasonable test prospects
(beeb news..)
'Robbie Henshaw and George North are not involved after being ruled out of the rest of the tour.
Ireland centre Henshaw (pectoral) and Wales wing North (hamstring) were injured in the 31-31 draw against Hurricanes in Wellington and will return home after Saturday's match.'

[Banquo]

2 of the more physical backs are homebound..both originally reasonable test prospects
(beeb news..)
'Robbie Henshaw and George North are not involved after being ruled out of the rest of the tour.
Ireland centre Henshaw (pectoral) and Wales wing North (hamstring) were injured in the 31-31 draw against Hurricanes in Wellington and will return home after Saturday's match.'

Fck. Are there any scots in New Zealand who can come and hold tackle bags??? Its worth a few quid and a good kit stash