RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
If we can engineer it so Barrett catches a high-ball with Lawes and Underhill coming at him from either side then we might be good. Seems pretty risky if not.

Our kicks are well-chased on far too few occasions. If, if, if the two Fs are as good at kicking as is claimed then the opposition FB is often gifted the ball unchallenged as a matter of policy. I think that is mega-risky if the FB is Barrett and the opposition is as good in attack as NZ.

The ‘tactic’ obviously comes with the caveat of the kick being a contested up and under rather than a kick for territory.

While no-one likes a box-kick, we did do this to good effect against Ireland in the 6N. Wouldn't target Barrett, but May and Watson are very good chasers.

Puja

Banquo wrote:

TheDasher wrote:Off topic because not happening but I wonder how:

Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

would go... probably fairly well.

The stick Daly gets for his defence at 15 would be as nothing compared to what he'd get at 13.

I think we've done this a few times before, you and I. Daly at 13 for Wasps was mostly excellent.

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Our kicks are well-chased on far too few occasions. If, if, if the two Fs are as good at kicking as is claimed then the opposition FB is often gifted the ball unchallenged as a matter of policy. I think that is mega-risky if the FB is Barrett and the opposition is as good in attack as NZ.

The ‘tactic’ obviously comes with the caveat of the kick being a contested up and under rather than a kick for territory.

While no-one likes a box-kick, we did do this to good effect against Ireland in the 6N. Wouldn't target Barrett, but May and Watson are very good chasers.

Puja

I suspect that NZ will be rubbing their hands with glee if our recent standard of kicking is continued. The snag is that Ford+Farrell = kicking. Ford OR Farrell MAY not.

TheDasher wrote:

Banquo wrote:

TheDasher wrote:Off topic because not happening but I wonder how:

Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

would go... probably fairly well.

The stick Daly gets for his defence at 15 would be as nothing compared to what he'd get at 13.

I think we've done this a few times before, you and I. Daly at 13 for Wasps was mostly excellent.

Really? I remember it being his major weakness.

Puja

Interesting article by Grayson

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50166735

Nothing stellar in there, I did smile at the line, ‘you would definitely pick Smith over Youngs’

Not a lot between the teams. Smith and Barret over Youngs and Daly just tip the scales a smidge antipodean.

Oh and line out. S Barrett providing a viable 4th jumping option compared to England’s 2 and a Curry.

Puja wrote:

TheDasher wrote:

Banquo wrote: The stick Daly gets for his defence at 15 would be as nothing compared to what he'd get at 13.

I think we've done this a few times before, you and I. Daly at 13 for Wasps was mostly excellent.

Really? I remember it being his major weakness.

Puja

You honestly think his defence at 13 for Wasps over the many years he played there was as bad as it has been for England at 15?

Do you recall what he was like in his initial run at 15 for Wasps a few years back?

I remember being very impressed with the regular searing breaks but not paying much attention to the areas he's now falling down a bit as an international 15. Maybe it was more that he was young and promising than actually looking the part as a fullback.

I'd call him a brave defender but I've never been particularly impressed with his actual tackling. He seemed to just innately understand his defensive positioning on the wing, which is so much of the job, but I never felt like that with him at centre.

Our long kicks to Aus were basically betting on our defence to stop them, and knowing they'd be willing to try and play it out. NZ are likely to be more practical, and if there's not a great counter attack on the table, they'll boot it back.

TheDasher wrote:

Banquo wrote:

TheDasher wrote:Off topic because not happening but I wonder how:

Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

would go... probably fairly well.

The stick Daly gets for his defence at 15 would be as nothing compared to what he'd get at 13.

I think we've done this a few times before, you and I. Daly at 13 for Wasps was mostly excellent.

Mostly missing a couple of tackles a game at 13. I really like him as a player, notably wing, but his defence was not top notch at 13- which is why we have done this before. Why would I have changed my view, since he has hardly played there since last debated?

TheDasher wrote:

Puja wrote:

TheDasher wrote:
I think we've done this a few times before, you and I. Daly at 13 for Wasps was mostly excellent.

Really? I remember it being his major weakness.

Puja

You honestly think his defence at 13 for Wasps over the many years he played there was as bad as it has been for England at 15?

That's somewhat sideways to the original proposition. I don't think his defence at 13 is as bad as it is at 15, but that a) is a bar set so low you could trip over it and b) doesn't make his defence at 13 suitable for an international team.

Puja

It's strange how these things turn out.

I always thought Daly was a good club OC but not an international one. Then, he played on the wing and he looked absolute top international class. Having advocated it, I thought I had something right at last. Then he got moved to FB, never looked brilliant but has kept the shirt for a long time.

Slade, I always thought was building up to be a useful FH and possibly a great IC. He has spent nearly all his time since at OC where he looks better than many accept. He is in/out following injury.

Joseph, I did not rate but he came in at OC and for a year or more looked superb in defence and attack. After injury, he looked to me to have lost a yard of pace. He is still great defensively but not the attacking threat he used to be. Now he is on the fringe of things.

Oakboy wrote:Slade, I always thought was building up to be a useful FH and possibly a great IC. He has spent nearly all his time since at OC where he looks better than many accept. He is in/out following injury.

Wait, there are "many" who don't think Slade is a good OC?
Where are these people?

Which Tyler wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Slade, I always thought was building up to be a useful FH and possibly a great IC. He has spent nearly all his time since at OC where he looks better than many accept. He is in/out following injury.

Wait, there are "many" who don't think Slade is a good OC?
Where are these people?

I think he's good when he's fit, though still worry about his defence a bit. Still don't think its the position that generally uses his skills the best.

Which Tyler wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Slade, I always thought was building up to be a useful FH and possibly a great IC. He has spent nearly all his time since at OC where he looks better than many accept. He is in/out following injury.

Wait, there are "many" who don't think Slade is a good OC?
Where are these people?

Quite a few prefer Joseph and quite a few still see Slade as IC. I'd guess that well over half the posters on here would NOT have Slade as first choice OC whereas Jones has fairly often. That's what I really meant.

Oakboy wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Slade, I always thought was building up to be a useful FH and possibly a great IC. He has spent nearly all his time since at OC where he looks better than many accept. He is in/out following injury.

Wait, there are "many" who don't think Slade is a good OC?
Where are these people?

Quite a few prefer Joseph and quite a few still see Slade as IC. I'd guess that well over half the posters on here would NOT have Slade as first choice OC whereas Jones has fairly often. That's what I really meant.

That's different between not thinking he's good. We're lucky to have a range of 13s. Not many natural 12s, though, which is why Slade's situation is a little frustrating.

Banquo wrote:I think he's good when he's fit, though still worry about his defence a bit. Still don't think its the position that generally uses his skills the best.

Exactly - which seems perfectly reasonable (though I'd say "very good" when fit, which may or may not still make him 3rd choice OC for England).
For myself, I'd add that his messianic status particularly irritated me - but that's to do with fans and press, not him as a player.
There was also the odd question mark over whether he'd transfer his abilities to the international stage during his early caps - where he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - but surely that one's settled now as well.

None of which is saying that he's not a very good outside centre.

Oakboy wrote:Quite a few prefer Joseph and quite a few still see Slade as IC. I'd guess that well over half the posters on here would NOT have Slade as first choice OC whereas Jones has fairly often. That's what I really meant.

But that's not under-rating Slade; at worst it's rating Tuilagi and Joseph as even better. Which is nothing at all like saying that he's not a very good OC.
Whilst seeing Slade as more of an IC than an OC, is looking at his attributes, and seeing what position best fits those - which is nothing at all like saying that he doesn't look good at OC.

Is it possible yo're judging people on their opinions from 2 years ago? When Slade had yet to put in a convincing performance for England, whilst being hailed as a Messiah, not having fully nailed a single shirt at his club, and up against 2 genuinely world class players, one of whom was in a rich run of form?


I also think that May and Daly are better wingers than Watson and Nowell - but that doesn't mean that I don't think that Watson and Nowell aren't very good. Or Ford and Cipriani > Farrell. Or Mako and Marler > Genge. Or Itoje and Lawes > Launchbury (I don't necessarily). Or...

Oakboy wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Slade, I always thought was building up to be a useful FH and possibly a great IC. He has spent nearly all his time since at OC where he looks better than many accept. He is in/out following injury.

Wait, there are "many" who don't think Slade is a good OC?
Where are these people?

Quite a few prefer Joseph and quite a few still see Slade as IC. I'd guess that well over half the posters on here would NOT have Slade as first choice OC whereas Jones has fairly often. That's what I really meant.

Preferring JJ and Manu doesn't mean he's not a perfectly fine 13; impossible to see him as an IC when he doesn't line up there from 1st phase or many other phases, even if I think he'd do a better job than Faz there.

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:I think he's good when he's fit, though still worry about his defence a bit. Still don't think its the position that generally uses his skills the best.

Exactly - which seems perfectly reasonable (though I'd say "very good" when fit, which may or may not still make him 3rd choice OC for England).
For myself, I'd add that his messianic status particularly irritated me - but that's to do with fans and press, not him as a player.
There was also the odd question mark over whether he'd transfer his abilities to the international stage during his early caps - where he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - but surely that one's settled now as well.

None of which is saying that he's not a very good outside centre.

Oakboy wrote:Quite a few prefer Joseph and quite a few still see Slade as IC. I'd guess that well over half the posters on here would NOT have Slade as first choice OC whereas Jones has fairly often. That's what I really meant.

But that's not under-rating Slade; at worst it's rating Tuilagi and Joseph as even better. Which is nothing at all like saying that he's not a very good OC.
Whilst seeing Slade as more of an IC than an OC, is looking at his attributes, and seeing what position best fits those - which is nothing at all like saying that he doesn't look good at OC.

Is it possible yo're judging people on their opinions from 2 years ago? When Slade had yet to put in a convincing performance for England, whilst being hailed as a Messiah, not having fully nailed a single shirt at his club, and up against 2 genuinely world class players, one of whom was in a rich run of form?


I also think that May and Daly are better wingers than Watson and Nowell - but that doesn't mean that I don't think that Watson and Nowell aren't very good. Or Ford and Cipriani > Farrell. Or Mako and Marler > Genge. Or Itoje and Lawes > Launchbury (I don't necessarily). Or...

Fipriani > Farrell

Hansen saying they are going to target our line out.

Lawcurtoje will cope

twitchy wrote:Hansen saying they are going to target our line out.

Picks a lock at 6 and then drops the bombshell that they're going to target our lineout? Truly, he is a master of subterfuge.

I'm hoping Borthwick's kept the powder dry on some lineout moves. He was the man that ran the Japanese lineout in the first South Africa game, so he's got form in getting results against a physically taller lineout.

Puja

Banquo wrote:Lawcurtoje will cope

Which, what have you done?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Lawcurtoje will cope

Which, what have you done?

Puja

Whuja is not happy.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Lawcurtoje will cope

Which, what have you done?

Puja

Whuja is not happy.

We'll only know when Digsblue stops quoting himself.