RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote:Fast player = good attack.

Yes and that is why Simmonds has to get a proper test. His acceleration over the first 10-15 yards can open all sorts of gaps if used properly. Half a game with the previous shape of play would be a waste of time.

FWIW, I agree with you re. Simmonds

However, I think Mikey was referring to ‘fast player = good attack’ is an overly simplistic point of view.

The notion of picking forwards primarily based upon how quick they are really isn’t a recipe for success in rugby.

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
I thought Brad Shields was pretty useless for England but now that he has settled into the English game he has become an effective player with a broad skill-set. I'd suggest that he and Dave Ewers are now pretty much on a par with Shields a marginally better line-out option and Ewers a marginally stronger carrier. I see both as potentially useful lumps at 6 should that be required to balance the back row with, say, Curry and Simmonds. The alternatives, per Jones, are Martin, Itoje or Lawes, presumably. I'd still like to see Isiekwe tried.

Shields now seemingly forgotten, which seems odd as as you say, he's started to grow into the English game nicely. Would fill a Josh Navidi-style all rounder role across the back row really well and thanks to his Kiwi upbringing his handling skills and support running are just that touch more instinctive than your average English blindside's, so he adds plenty of positives on both sides of the ball. Ewers sadly seems destined to go down with Dan Robson as the unluckiest English player of his generation, although Robson at least can say he actually got to pull on the jersey. That said, if Jones is willing to overlook age in the case of Atkinson then I suppose there's hope yet.

Ewers is a funny one, because his strength - in the ruck, maul, and support, as well as direct carrying - is just such a phenomenal X-factor that you feel like he'd have to play, but he's just not mobile enough for the international game. He'd be worse for our breakdown and ball retention than playing Lawes at 6 and we'd get targeted by every other international side. You'd have to build a pack around his weaknesses.

It's a shame, cause there are occasions where he could really do a job (that period in the RWC final where we were 3 points down and camped on their line without being able to get over, for example), but he's just not balanced enough of a player to make it at the top level.

Puja

Ewers actually seems exactly what we need in that lock berth right now as this skillset seems very complementary to that of Itoje?

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:
Shields now seemingly forgotten, which seems odd as as you say, he's started to grow into the English game nicely. Would fill a Josh Navidi-style all rounder role across the back row really well and thanks to his Kiwi upbringing his handling skills and support running are just that touch more instinctive than your average English blindside's, so he adds plenty of positives on both sides of the ball. Ewers sadly seems destined to go down with Dan Robson as the unluckiest English player of his generation, although Robson at least can say he actually got to pull on the jersey. That said, if Jones is willing to overlook age in the case of Atkinson then I suppose there's hope yet.

Ewers is a funny one, because his strength - in the ruck, maul, and support, as well as direct carrying - is just such a phenomenal X-factor that you feel like he'd have to play, but he's just not mobile enough for the international game. He'd be worse for our breakdown and ball retention than playing Lawes at 6 and we'd get targeted by every other international side. You'd have to build a pack around his weaknesses.

It's a shame, cause there are occasions where he could really do a job (that period in the RWC final where we were 3 points down and camped on their line without being able to get over, for example), but he's just not balanced enough of a player to make it at the top level.

Puja

Ewers actually seems exactly what we need in that lock berth right now as this skillset seems very complementary to that of Itoje?

He'd have the Andrew Sheridan problem - only 6'4 and not a lineout option. You could have him in at lock, but you'd again have to rearrange the rest of the pack around him. Plus, I've got no idea whether he can scrummage effectively at lock - it's not a facile skill.

Puja

I'd hate to be his lifter

Danno wrote:I'd hate to be his lifter

Don’t worry, he wouldn’t have to jump. We’ll just stick a lock at flanker to accommodate playing a 6 at second row.

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:
Shields now seemingly forgotten, which seems odd as as you say, he's started to grow into the English game nicely. Would fill a Josh Navidi-style all rounder role across the back row really well and thanks to his Kiwi upbringing his handling skills and support running are just that touch more instinctive than your average English blindside's, so he adds plenty of positives on both sides of the ball. Ewers sadly seems destined to go down with Dan Robson as the unluckiest English player of his generation, although Robson at least can say he actually got to pull on the jersey. That said, if Jones is willing to overlook age in the case of Atkinson then I suppose there's hope yet.

Ewers is a funny one, because his strength - in the ruck, maul, and support, as well as direct carrying - is just such a phenomenal X-factor that you feel like he'd have to play, but he's just not mobile enough for the international game. He'd be worse for our breakdown and ball retention than playing Lawes at 6 and we'd get targeted by every other international side. You'd have to build a pack around his weaknesses.

It's a shame, cause there are occasions where he could really do a job (that period in the RWC final where we were 3 points down and camped on their line without being able to get over, for example), but he's just not balanced enough of a player to make it at the top level.

Puja

Ewers actually seems exactly what we need in that lock berth right now as this skillset seems very complementary to that of Itoje?

Are you joking?

Know I am looking at this with wasps tinted glasses but surprised there haven’t been more comments about Robson’s omission. I like the look of Quirke but arguably him and Randall are well off the international level at present and extremely well adrift from the level Robson had to get to before he got a look in with Eddie. Also both play in a very un-Eddie way, whereas Robson and Spencer seemingly have tried to adapt their game to fit what Eddie wants and are now jettisoned.
Or do we just look at this with a wry smile and see as just what Eddie does?

‘WTF selections’ is a great phrase mentioned above - I do like how an England coach is looking around the other clubs a bit more these days though. No wasps selections is disappointing but could help us over a lot over the international window.

JnnyD wrote: Or do we just look at this with a wry smile and see as just what Eddie does?

I guess it’s just that we know Jones doesn’t rate him and despite probably being the form 9 in the prem he was always liable to miss out.

Yeah you have to feel for him a bit. He was far from a perfect player but it never felt like Jones was really very committed to giving anyone else (other than Heinz I guess) a real shot at the 9 shirt.

I think he is one of those whose England career is basically over at this point, now we’re in to RWC phase 2 it’s hard to see him having enough credit in the bank with EJ to ever get a recall.

Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah you have to feel for him a bit. He was far from a perfect player but it never felt like Jones was really very committed to giving anyone else (other than Heinz I guess) a real shot at the 9 shirt.

I think he is one of those whose England career is basically over at this point, now we’re in to RWC phase 2 it’s hard to see him having enough credit in the bank with EJ to ever get a recall.

Robson’s only other chance of getting a cap is if Louis Schreuder injures himself in the RWC semifinal and Robson is flown over as a last minute replacement.

http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/pl ... view=match

Had to look it up but didn’t realise he never even got 1 start.

Robson was capped far too late. He was in great form years before he got a game.

It must be hugely frustrating in that situation.

Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah you have to feel for him a bit. He was far from a perfect player but it never felt like Jones was really very committed to giving anyone else (other than Heinz I guess) a real shot at the 9 shirt.

I think he is one of those whose England career is basically over at this point, now we’re in to RWC phase 2 it’s hard to see him having enough credit in the bank with EJ to ever get a recall.

Heinz only really got a run because Robson had to miss the RWC with deep vein thrombosis, too. Arguably he actually fitted the WC gameplan better as he was a closer like-for-like for Youngs than Robson, but it still only really adds to the bad luck story!

JnnyD wrote:Know I am looking at this with wasps tinted glasses but surprised there haven’t been more comments about Robson’s omission. I like the look of Quirke but arguably him and Randall are well off the international level at present and extremely well adrift from the level Robson had to get to before he got a look in with Eddie. Also both play in a very un-Eddie way, whereas Robson and Spencer seemingly have tried to adapt their game to fit what Eddie wants and are now jettisoned.
Or do we just look at this with a wry smile and see as just what Eddie does?

‘WTF selections’ is a great phrase mentioned above - I do like how an England coach is looking around the other clubs a bit more these days though. No wasps selections is disappointing but could help us over a lot over the international window.

Yeah, both of these players have promise but neither would start for their club in a big game when all the rest are fit as Sale would play De Klerk and Bristol have been starting Andy Uren ahead of Randall, mainly due to Uren's ability to control the game better from what I can discern.

It could be that these two are really in to give them a flavour of the training camp, I can't see Quirke featuring in your matches.

Numbers wrote: Yeah, both of these players have promise but neither would start for their club in a big game when all the rest are fit as Sale would play De Klerk and Bristol have been starting Andy Uren ahead of Randall, mainly due to Uren's ability to control the game better from what I can discern.

Randell and Uren alternate, Randell has started the last two games and he also started the Euro Challenge Cup game - so they're pretty equal in terms of starting/finishing.

Whitely appears to be making an impression though so suspect he'll be seen soon, especially as he appears to be a useful goal kicker to.

Robson should have been capped on the tour to Argentina during the last Lions tour, was the perfect opportunity to blood a third SH away from Youngs and Care and that 9 could have built nicely over the years until now, unfortunately Maunder was picked instead. Eddie then decided to only pick 2 9s for years (as he did with hookers) until Care annoyed him and he needed someone else.

England were bad in the last 6N but Robson was worse. His tactical play was like rabbit in the headlights. It's an area of his game that has always been a weakness and much like Care he doesn't seem to want to improve it. Much like Care, Robson has been overtaken by younger options as he's now unlikely to step up and Eddie wants to bring some youth to the squad.

Randall is perhaps a bit lucky because he's to my mind a smaller but faster Robson. He'll need some serious development. Quirke, however, has shown glimpses of playing at a level beyond Robson already. Danny Care Vs Quirke was talked up pre game last week but had it been a boxing match that would have been called off before half time. Quirke looked like the more experienced player ably controlling territory and tempo, had his team been able to catch and his 10 kick for goal it would have been sown up sooner. Care's tap and go try was class but a moment in a game all about the younger guy.

Randall earned another go in the summer. Youngs for his inaccuracies can play different game plans to suit what the team wants and in a poor England during the 6N was one of the very few who deserve a little credit (not that he got any). Left Robson Vs Quirke and well the younger guy has a lot more potential and a kicking game.

Why does Uren never get a mention in terms of international selection? I like the thought of Quirke starting and Uren on the bench.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Danno wrote:I'd hate to be his lifter

Don’t worry, he wouldn’t have to jump. We’ll just stick another lock at flanker to accommodate playing a 6 at second row.

FTFY

JnnyD wrote:Robson should have been capped on the tour to Argentina during the last Lions tour, was the perfect opportunity to blood a third SH away from Youngs and Care and that 9 could have built nicely over the years until now, unfortunately Maunder was picked instead. Eddie then decided to only pick 2 9s for years (as he did with hookers) until Care annoyed him and he needed someone else.

And didn't Maunder only get a token minute or so at the end of the first game? Care played the full 80 in the second Test.

There's a certain nagging concern in the back of my head that the last few times we've gone into higher level games with neither of the Vunipolas we've looked woefully short of carrying options. Putting aside the benefits Mako's short range passing give too.

Mikey Brown wrote:Fast player = good attack.

It’s an ingredient surely?

No one’s questioning whether it’s an ingredient, but when it comes to judging back row players, it would be a way down my list.