Japan vs England team speculation

[Beasties]

Re size matters at THP. Difficult to deny that although it’s not an absolute by any means.

But if you’re gonna offer up the likes of Atonio or Tameifuna then you’d be making a good case, but they do vastly more around the pitch than Painter ever will, whilst being difficult to scrummage against.

[Oakboy]

He's done it for us!!!! All the offerings on the SB initials are redundant with the announcement that England are training with SOAPY BALLS. The other coaches were there as well, reportedly.

[Which Tyler]

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm not sure why we're discussing someone so desperately short of the standard for even being in contention.

Especially considering the discussion is limited to us all agreeing on him being a long way away from being up to it.

Size will count against AOF as a TH. Sensibly he plays LH for the u20s and this is really where his future lies.

I am happy with AOF going either side; I just want consensus on his development from everyone involved. Loosehead does seem to make more sense in terms of Sela/Fasogbon at U20s and hopefully the same conclusion will be drawn at Sale now that Harper is apparently kicking on sufficiently that he's a potential England player.

Either way, as Dasher days, we've got a real golden crop of players coming through at prop and elsewhere - potentially some huge battles for international selection. Hopefully iron sharpens iron.

Puja

AOF was with the U20 squad in Coventry at the weekend, and very much seen as a LH now in those ranks.

There's a few very decent prospects pushing through, either now, with the likes of Baxter, Brantingham, Harper, next layer with Haffar, Dormer who will be getting more chances next season, or next cabs like Sela, AOF, Fasogbon. And not forgetting people like Iyogun, who has been very good since returning.

[Puja]

I am happy with AOF going either side; I just want consensus on his development from everyone involved. Loosehead does seem to make more sense in terms of Sela/Fasogbon at U20s and hopefully the same conclusion will be drawn at Sale now that Harper is apparently kicking on sufficiently that he's a potential England player.

Either way, as Dasher days, we've got a real golden crop of players coming through at prop and elsewhere - potentially some huge battles for international selection. Hopefully iron sharpens iron.

Puja

AOF was with the U20 squad in Coventry at the weekend, and very much seen as a LH now in those ranks.

He always was with the U20s - my issue was Sale not agreeing and playing him the other side. There should be some joined up thinking with young players' developments.

Puja

[Banquo]

I am happy with AOF going either side; I just want consensus on his development from everyone involved. Loosehead does seem to make more sense in terms of Sela/Fasogbon at U20s and hopefully the same conclusion will be drawn at Sale now that Harper is apparently kicking on sufficiently that he's a potential England player.

Either way, as Dasher days, we've got a real golden crop of players coming through at prop and elsewhere - potentially some huge battles for international selection. Hopefully iron sharpens iron.

Puja

AOF was with the U20 squad in Coventry at the weekend, and very much seen as a LH now in those ranks.

He always was with the U20s - my issue was Sale not agreeing and playing him the other side. There should be some joined up thinking with young players' developments.

Puja

Rfu want to use tier 2 if it ever arrives as a planned player development environment. I’m hoping they might adopt a draft type system.

[fivepointer]

England Men’s historic Test match against @JRFURugby in Tokyo will be free to view live on @rugbypass TV

[Mikey Brown]

So, team for Japan is selected from everyone except for Bath/Northampton? I can't quite remember how the dates or player rest/release lines up. I thought we'd have seen some 23s named as soon as the Prem final was confirmed.

[fivepointer]

There is 2 weeks between the Prem final and the Japan test. I guess giving Bath & Saints players another week off wouldnt be the worst option. Would still leave a pretty handy group to pick from.
Squad named later today apparently.
Telegraph reckons both Curry twins will be in.

[FKAS]

England training squad
Forwards: Fin Baxter (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Theo Dan (Saracens), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Ben Earl (Saracens), Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs), Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester Tigers), Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs), Rusi Tuima (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Willis (Saracens).

Backs: Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester), Joe Carpenter (Sale Sharks), Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs), George Ford (Sale Sharks), Max Malins (Bristol Bears), Luke Northmore (Harlequins), Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks), Harry Randall (Bristol Bears), Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers).

[Epaminondas Pules]

Be interesting to see who makes it from the final teams, but there’s potentially a lot of backrowers in that mix.

Shame that Pepper hasn’t been retained.

[Mikey Brown]

Weird balance again, but I assume we’ll get a dozen more squad announcements before a game is played.

Interesting Quirke gets in when he still seems unable to displace Warr.

I’d have thought Malins or even Shillcock might be more worthwhile as backup/3rd choice 10.

[FKAS]

Positionally;

LH - Marler, Baxter, Rodd
HK - Dan, Oghre, George
TH - Cole, Heyes
LK - Itoje, Isekwe, Martin, Tuima
Flank - Earl, CCS, Curry, Curry, Roots
8 - Dombrant, Fisilau, Willis
9 - JvP, Quirke, Randall
10 - Ford, Atkinson
Centre - Northmore, Slade
Wing - IFW, Roebuck
Fullback - Steward, M Smith, Carpenter, Malins

[Epaminondas Pules]

Furbank is the more likely backup backup, though we’ll take Smith x 2 and Ford as well.

[Mellsblue]

Positionally;

LH - Marler, Baxter, Rodd
HK - Dan, Oghre, George
TH - Cole, Heyes
LK - Itoje, Isekwe, Martin, Tuima
Flank - Earl, CCS, Curry, Curry, Roots
8 - Dombrant, Fisilau, Willis
9 - JvP, Quirke, Randall
10 - Ford, Atkinson
Centre - Northmore, Slade
Wing - IFW, Roebuck
Fullback - Steward, M Smith, Carpenter, Malins

Lol

[Danno]

Absolutely rancid bait

[Mikey Brown]

Furbank is the more likely backup backup, though we’ll take Smith x 2 and Ford as well.

Yeah I meant more within this current training squad. Malins could be vying to be backup Furbank if anything, when everyone is available, if Smith isn't already deemed to be that player. Whereas Atkinson seems a long. long way off of challenging a 23 or even full squad. Am I right in thinking he's played a bit of 12 though?

[Oakboy]

I never understood why Atkinson went to Leicester. It is tempting to wonder how good he would now be if he had gone to Exeter and been first choice, for example. His presence in the squad may indicate that Soapy Balls believes his ceiling is high. I've always liked his handling skill and pace.

[Scrumhead]

TBH I’m surprised he’s still in camp. Having him there when Ford was unavailable made some sense but I’m not sure it does now unless the main motivation is to provide encouragement and show a bit of faith in his potential. His form since leaving Wasps really doesn’t merit his inclusion IMO. Louie Johnson probably deserved that spot as the developing 10.

[Puja]

TBH I’m surprised he’s still in camp. Having him there when Ford was unavailable made some sense but I’m not sure it does now unless the main motivation is to provide encouragement and show a bit of faith in his potential. His form since leaving Wasps really doesn’t merit his inclusion IMO. Louie Johnson probably deserved that spot as the developing 10.

It's entirely possible that he was in there originally just as the spare 10 for the first training camp, but has thrown himself in so well that he's earned the right to stay for another week or so. There's no doubt that he's got talent, but he does appear to be very much a confidence player.

It feels like Wasps going under really shook him, then his performances immediately after got him stuck behind Shillcock (rather than playing understudy and apprentice to Pollard, as everyone had probably intended with the move to Leicester), which made it worse and then fuelled the problem because he wasn't playing well enough to be shown the faith which he needed to play better (probably not helped by having no attack coach).

It didn't get better with the move to Glaws as everyone had hoped, but maybe he's been able to have a reset and the faith shown by Surely ButterIsn'tIt has inspired him?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yes, it’s entirely possible he’s earned the right to stay there.

He’s hardly the first person to be derailed by a redundancy situation and it was worse for him given it came at an important point of his development.

I have sympathy, but he really needs the Gloucester move to work out if he wants to achieve his potential.

[FKAS]

Problem with Atkinson is that he's not a front line goal kicker. Off the tee he's really poor and from hand kicking to the corner he's not much better. It's part of the reason he lost out to Shillcock at Tigers.

To Oakboy's point Tigers could have been a great place for him. Pollard has one more year on his contract and it's 50/50 as to whether he stays or not. It Atkinson had kicked on and shown the required game management and kicking ability Tigers would have likely pushed him through as the successor and at 23 Atkinson would have been heading into the season after next as a Prem starter having spent a couple of seasons being mentored by a world cup winning flyhalf. Rob Baxter never likely to opt for a flyhalf like Atkinson given his current deficiencies. At Gloucester combining him at 10 with Carreras at 15 and having two playmakers seems the likely way forward on the short term.

As an option at 15 he could be good as he's quick and has good vision ball in hand. He's played 15 a fair bit as well. That might be his quickest way onto the international stage.

[Scrumhead]

Mostly agree with that but Baxter is currently playing Skinner at 10 with Slade doing all of the kicking so Atkinson probably would have had a very good shout there …

[SixAndAHalf]

Positionally;

LH - Marler, Baxter, Rodd
HK - Dan, Oghre, George
TH - Cole, Heyes
LK - Itoje, Isekwe, Martin, Tuima
Flank - Earl, CCS, Curry, Curry, Roots
8 - Dombrant, Fisilau, Willis
9 - JvP, Quirke, Randall
10 - Ford, Atkinson
Centre - Northmore, Slade
Wing - IFW, Roebuck
Fullback - Steward, M Smith, Carpenter, Malins

Lol

Earl at 12 would have been the ideal for this

[FKAS]

Mostly agree with that but Baxter is currently playing Skinner at 10 with Slade doing all of the kicking so Atkinson probably would have had a very good shout there …

Fair. It is a mystery as to how Skinner remains first choice. He does manage a game passably well but that's about it. Baxter does like game management at 10 what with Steenson and then Simmonds.