RugbyRebels

rowan wrote:How does Turkey celebrate Independence Day?

Glazed ham with all the fixins?

Coco wrote:

rowan wrote:How does Turkey celebrate Independence Day?

Glazed ham with all the fixins?

Or just roast a few more journos instead. Cumhuriyet, meaning 'Republic,' is one of the nation's biggest newspapers, akin to the Observer or The Times in Britain. I've written numerous articles for the English language version, in which this story appears:

Eleven people, including executives and columnists of the critical daily Cumhuriyet newspaper, were detained in a series of raids on their homes early on Oct. 31, after prosecutors initiated a probe against them on “terrorism” charges.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkis ... sCatID=509

Last night half the internet suddenly became inaccessible, including Facebook, Youtube and various news sites, so I knew something bad had happened in Turkey because that's the standard procedure when something bad happens here. Though much as I searched those international news sites I could access, there was nothing new about Turkey - useless gits! This morning I wake up to find half the internet is still down (just because....), though both Turkish TV and those international news sites I can access are telling me that the co-leaders of the main Kurdish party have been added to the lists of scores of thousands detained during the extended State of Emergency which has followed the so-called attempted "coup" (that fizzled out before it really started). The Kurdish HDP party had been doing increasingly well under the charismatic leadership of Selahattin Demirtas and gained the threshhold for direct representation in government last year with 12% of the vote. This mean the ruling party lost its majority and president Erdogan's plans to rewrite the constitution were scuppered. The ruling party obstinately refused to join a coalition government, and following a series of horrific terrorist attacks (targetting mostly Kurds), a snap election was held and it got the majority it desired, although the HDP narrowly remained above the 10% threshhold. Erdogan described the so-called attempted "coup" as a 'gift from God,' and has duly set about purging the Gulenists he blames for it, although their leader remains beyond his reach in the valleys of Pennsylvania. NB: There is pretty strong evidence the Gulenists were collaborating with the CIA during the Cold War. But now the post-coup purge seems to have mysteriously expanded into a Kurdish party operation as well, with many of their leaders already under detention. To put that in perspective, the Kurds are about 15% of the population here and regarded as indigenous to south-east Turkey, north-west Iraq and northern Syria, where they have undoubtedly lived for thousands of years, and since long before the Turkmen arrived in these parts. So this would be a little like New Zealand jailing the leadership of the Maori party, as a rough comparison. & meanwhile the Turkish army has crossed the border into both Syria and Iraq to bomb Kurds, to the annoyance of both those nations, and also to the Americans,' as the Kurds have been leading the fight against so-called ISIS (Saudi-backed Jihadists).

Reported in the Economist
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21 ... e-republic

Looks increasing like Erdogan making a grab for dictatorial control.
It's a bit ironic that he is shutting down social media, as it was allegedly this that allowed him to keep control during the "coup attempt".

The fact social media not only stayed open during the so-called attempted "coup" (it is generally shut down on the slightest pretext), but that our glorious leader actually spent most of that evening on national TV via Face Time, suggested to me there was something sorely amiss with the entire situation. Meanwhile, we've only just got social media and other sites back in the last hour or so.

More arrests at the Cumhuriyet as well. So this week alone they've detained editorial staff and journalists of one of the nations major newspapers, along with the leaders and several other members of the main Kurdish party. & so-called 'ISIS' keeps carrying out terrorist attacks against the Kurds...

Interesting article about Turkey's role in the Middle East here: http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/15/extr ... -progress/

The government has come up with a brilliant idea to make room for all the journalists, teachers, judges, police officers and soldiers it has been arresting in the wake of a disastrous coup attempt: Let all the rapists out so long as they marry their victims. Simple! http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/outrag ... sCatID=509

Government backs down on this after fierce street demonstrations. Actually, what it entailed was arranged marriages, still common in the east, whereby sexual relationships were established before the girl reached the age of consent; statutory rape, in other words. So I think the anger was mostly directed at the fact the government seemed almost to be legitimizing the practice of arranged marriages, in which the male partner is sometimes decades older than the female.

Never a dull moment in this country, that's for sure. The Syrian regime has, for the first time, struck Turkish troops - who have been operating inside Syrian borders without authority from anybody, under the pretext of "chasing ISIS" (as well as Kurds, of course). 3 Turkish soldiers killed. Given our glorious leader's penchant for volatile hyperbole one might expect all kinds of revenge threats to follow.

But there is a problem with that now, because the EU has formally frozen accession talks with Turkey today due to the draconian response to the so-called "attempted coup." What this means is that Turkey will now likely look eastward instead, to the Shanghai Pact - which includes Russia. So obviously they're not going to want to upset Moscow now by retaliating against its ally Syria.

In addition to which, much relied upon Russian tourism has only just begun to trick back into Turkey following a crippling boycott during the summer due to the shooting down of a Russian plane operating against terrorists in Syria. The lira has apparently hit a low against the dollar at about 3.3 right now.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... z4QqeuRmfn

rowan wrote:Never a dull moment in this country, that's for sure. The Syrian regime has, for the first time, struck Turkish troops - who have been operating inside Syrian borders without authority from anybody, under the pretext of "chasing ISIS" (as well as Kurds, of course). 3 Turkish soldiers killed. Given our glorious leader's penchant for volatile hyperbole one might expect all kinds of revenge threats to follow.

But there is a problem with that now, because the EU has formally frozen accession talks with Turkey today due to the draconian response to the so-called "attempted coup." What this means is that Turkey will now likely look eastward instead, to the Shanghai Pact - which includes Russia. So obviously they're not going to want to upset Moscow now by retaliating against its ally Syria.

In addition to which, much relied upon Russian tourism has only just begun to trick back into Turkey following a crippling boycott during the summer due to the shooting down of a Russian plane operating against terrorists in Syria. The lira has apparently hit a low against the dollar at about 3.3 right now.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... z4QqeuRmfn

There is a lot of mystery surrounding this incident. Some facts to consider.
- Turkish forces are nowhere near Syrian Government forces in the location where this incident is reported to have taken place.
- The incident occurred at 3:30am or thereabouts, while the Syrian Airforce had not previously carried out any nighttime attacks, and has a very limited capability to do so.
- The incident occurred on the anniversary of the Turks shooting down a Russian aircraft.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. The plot thickens. As predicted, the government is already threatening retaliation, but that would be very myopic, for the reasons mentioned above. The bottom line is, Turkey has no right to be in Syria. ISIS is not a valid reason to simply roll your tanks across foreign borders these days (we all know it's only a pretext). Turkey really needs to stop at this point and take a long, hard look in the mirror. The problem is, when we talk about "Turkey" these days, we are no longer talking about the will of the Turkish people. They have no control over any of this.

From the horse's own mouth, and Turkey is a NATO member

The Turkish military launched its operations in Syria to end the rule of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Nov. 29.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... sCatID=352

rowan wrote:From the horse's own mouth, and Turkey is a NATO member

The Turkish military launched its operations in Syria to end the rule of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Nov. 29.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... sCatID=352

Turkey's membership of NATO being relevant how, exactly?

Very much so. Where do you think our glorious leader draws his power from - his bicep muscles perhaps?

Of course, if you prefer the view that he has gone AWOL, and that NATO has absolutely no interest in regime change in Syria or any other secular Middle Eastern nation, and would never dream of getting involved in one, then good luck to you.

rowan wrote:Very much so. Where do you think our glorious leader draws his power from - his bicep muscles perhaps?

Of course, if you prefer the view that he has gone AWOL, and that NATO has absolutely no interest in regime change in Syria or any other secular Middle Eastern nation, and would never dream of getting involved in one, then good luck to you.

Your glorious leader doesn't draw any power from NATO, that's for sure. His adventures in Syria are not NATO backed, approved, or even considered wise.

Fact, Turkey is part of NATO. Fact, it has not been kicked out. Fact, America's criticism of Turkey's actions in Syria has been about comparable to its criticisms of Israel in Palestine. Fact, the US continues to support Turkey diplomatically and financially. If you can't read between the lines and figure it out, then good luck to you.

rowan wrote:Fact, Turkey is part of NATO. Fact, it has not been kicked out. Fact, America's criticism of Turkey's actions in Syria has been about comparable to its criticisms of Israel in Palestine. Fact, the US continues to support Turkey diplomatically and financially. If you can't read between the lines and figure it out, then good luck to you.

NATO is a defensive alliance, it isn't a foreign policy alliance. If the US supports Turkey diplomatically and financially (which I doubt) then that is a bilateral issue between the US and Turkey and nothing to do with NATO. Saudi Arabia isn't a NATO member and there is no doubt that the US support them diplomatically.

You're just confused.

NATO is a defensive alliance,

This comment alone shows just how little you know about anything at all, let alone Turkey's relationship with the US and the rest of NATO.

Turkish war crimes? Don’t be absurd - they’re in NATO!

Cizre Kurds have accused Turkish forces of carrying out a civilian massacre. It is alleged that 150 people were burnt to death in a basement, and civilians were denied access to food and medical supplies.

An RT film crew arrived recently in the ruined town. Amid the scenes of destruction, one woman witness accused Turkish forces of killing ‘three-four- maybe five hundred people’. There have also been disturbing claims that some of the victims were beheaded.

RT has submitted its footage of Cizre to leading international human rights organizations and asked if full investigations will follow.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/336253-turki ... imes-nato/

If there were global justice, Nato would be in the dock over Libya


Libya was supposed to be different. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan had been learned, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy insisted last year. This would be a real humanitarian intervention. Unlike Iraq, there would be no boots on the ground. Unlike in Afghanistan, Nato air power would be used to support a fight for freedom and prevent a massacre. Unlike the Kosovo campaign, there would be no indiscriminate cluster bombs: only precision weapons would be used. This would be a war to save civilian lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nato-libya

NATO War Crimes in Afghanistan: A Never Ending Story

A close look at Afghanistan proves that a lot of these "human errors" have been happening there since the NATO-invasion started.
Recently, the U.S. army announced that it suspended ten military personnel who have been held responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan last October. The attack, which was clearly a war crime according to different human rights organizations including the United Nations, killed at least 42 civilians, mostly medical staff members and patients.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0047.html

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-china-us

rowan wrote:NATO is a defensive alliance,

This comment alone shows just how little you know about anything at all, let alone Turkey's relationship with the US and the rest of NATO.

Is this the best you can come up with?
Prove something different.
Your polemic is tiresome and boring me.

As a neutral I view those attempting to deny or justify NATO/American war crimes in the same light as I view Holocaust denialsts. Neo Nazis and apologists for the British Empire. Here once again is just the tip of an iceberg for you (you failed to address any of this last time):

Turkish war crimes? Don’t be absurd - they’re in NATO!

Cizre Kurds have accused Turkish forces of carrying out a civilian massacre. It is alleged that 150 people were burnt to death in a basement, and civilians were denied access to food and medical supplies.

An RT film crew arrived recently in the ruined town. Amid the scenes of destruction, one woman witness accused Turkish forces of killing ‘three-four- maybe five hundred people’. There have also been disturbing claims that some of the victims were beheaded.

RT has submitted its footage of Cizre to leading international human rights organizations and asked if full investigations will follow.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/336253-turki ... imes-nato/

If there were global justice, Nato would be in the dock over Libya


Libya was supposed to be different. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan had been learned, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy insisted last year. This would be a real humanitarian intervention. Unlike Iraq, there would be no boots on the ground. Unlike in Afghanistan, Nato air power would be used to support a fight for freedom and prevent a massacre. Unlike the Kosovo campaign, there would be no indiscriminate cluster bombs: only precision weapons would be used. This would be a war to save civilian lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nato-libya

NATO War Crimes in Afghanistan: A Never Ending Story

A close look at Afghanistan proves that a lot of these "human errors" have been happening there since the NATO-invasion started.
Recently, the U.S. army announced that it suspended ten military personnel who have been held responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan last October. The attack, which was clearly a war crime according to different human rights organizations including the United Nations, killed at least 42 civilians, mostly medical staff members and patients.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0047.html

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-china-us

rowan wrote:As a neutral I view those attempting to deny or justify NATO/American war crimes in the same light as I view Holocaust denialsts. Neo Nazis and apologists for the British Empire. Here once again is just the tip of an iceberg for you (you failed to address any of this last time):

Turkish war crimes? Don’t be absurd - they’re in NATO!

Cizre Kurds have accused Turkish forces of carrying out a civilian massacre. It is alleged that 150 people were burnt to death in a basement, and civilians were denied access to food and medical supplies.

An RT film crew arrived recently in the ruined town. Amid the scenes of destruction, one woman witness accused Turkish forces of killing ‘three-four- maybe five hundred people’. There have also been disturbing claims that some of the victims were beheaded.

RT has submitted its footage of Cizre to leading international human rights organizations and asked if full investigations will follow.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/336253-turki ... imes-nato/

If there were global justice, Nato would be in the dock over Libya


Libya was supposed to be different. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan had been learned, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy insisted last year. This would be a real humanitarian intervention. Unlike Iraq, there would be no boots on the ground. Unlike in Afghanistan, Nato air power would be used to support a fight for freedom and prevent a massacre. Unlike the Kosovo campaign, there would be no indiscriminate cluster bombs: only precision weapons would be used. This would be a war to save civilian lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nato-libya

NATO War Crimes in Afghanistan: A Never Ending Story

A close look at Afghanistan proves that a lot of these "human errors" have been happening there since the NATO-invasion started.
Recently, the U.S. army announced that it suspended ten military personnel who have been held responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan last October. The attack, which was clearly a war crime according to different human rights organizations including the United Nations, killed at least 42 civilians, mostly medical staff members and patients.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0047.html

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-china-us

You're not a neutral.

Why, because I don't share your apologist views on the biggest, most destructive war machine on the planet ever in history?

Anyway, this is a bit of a shocker too: http://europe.newsweek.com/michael-rubi ... 6379?rm=eu

rowan wrote:Why, because I don't share your apologist views on the biggest, most destructive war machine on the planet ever in history?

Anyway, this is a bit of a shocker too: http://europe.newsweek.com/michael-rubi ... 6379?rm=eu

Really it's just the weapons are more powerful, and actually for all its faults (and there are many) the USA is the most benevolent superpower the world has ever seen - this is progress.