RugbyRebels

Credit to him for stopping. Very easy to "justify" drinking like that on the basis that a lot of people have the same or more, forgetting that if you're drinking that much you're almost certainly surrounded by very heavy drinkers.

Not a helpful thought but I'm always amazed that professional athletes are able to drink like that without it destroying their careers. I'm sure his body would have appreciated him quitting sooner but he's been able to have a top career despite it.

LongForgotten wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:40 amNot a helpful thought but I'm always amazed that professional athletes are able to drink like that without it destroying their careers. I'm sure his body would have appreciated him quitting sooner but he's been able to have a top career despite it.

Indeed. Especially given he's been in England camps - with the attention to detail of nutritionists and supplements and macros, you would've thought someone somewhere would've noticed the big deficit that alcohol abuse would have on a player. Not really much point hammering in the 1% gains if there's a 10% anchor dragging them down.

Puja

Nic Dolly has declared for Australia. Fair play to him - hope he does well (but not too well).

On a similar note, I think this is the least poachy England squad in a very long time. We've got only three players (MSmith, Rodd, Roebuck) born outside the country and they've all got at least one English parent and moved to England in childhood. Admittedly, IFW would change the picture if he were fit, but it does speak well to our pipeline that we're not importing anymore.

Puja

Sleightholme having ankle surgery, his season is apparently over.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 11:33 am Sleightholme having ankle surgery, his season is apparently over.

Ooft, poor sod. Hope we leave him behind on the summer tour, even if he's healed - he wants to make sure that's properly right and have a good pre-season. I'm assuming that was why he didn't play against Wales, rather than a selection decision, although it worked out quite well all things told.

Puja

CM in tgraph has done a good article on english up and coming centres.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... borthwick/



Alternate link https://archive.ph/a48bm for those without paywall blockers - Mod

Here have my data, also no you can’t look at this page. My god I hate the internet. Hopefully some kind soul will repost the open link because I can’t remember what it’s called.

A tldr on Atkinson? Any juicy reveal as to why he’s not remotely in the frame?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 4:54 pm Here have my data, also no you can’t look at this page. My god I hate the internet. Hopefully some kind soul will repost the open link because I can’t remember what it’s called.

A tldr on Atkinson? Any juicy reveal as to why he’s not remotely in the frame?

Here you go MB
https://archive.ph/a48bm

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:26 pm CM in tgraph has done a good article on english up and coming centres.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... borthwick/



Alternate link https://archive.ph/a48bm for those without paywall blockers - Mod

Interesting article.

I think we tend to get gluts of players in positions about 6-10 years after a position becomes a cause celebre as a void for England. When I was 12-13, I taught myself to bowl spin after watching Robert Croft toiling to get any turn out of surfaces that Warne got going sideways - not because I was ever going to challenge a selector anywhere, but because I liked dreaming and pretending that I might. I would imagine it's the same childhood logic that sees us with all our top players going to the backrow 10-11 years after all the SArmitage stuff and the subsequent RWC humbling, or that we're going to have a glut of tightheads coming to fruition about 7 years after the 2019 RWC final, or that a bunch of age-group players are gravitating towards 12 after the barren years that we've had.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:44 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:26 pm CM in tgraph has done a good article on english up and coming centres.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... borthwick/



Alternate link https://archive.ph/a48bm for those without paywall blockers - Mod

Interesting article.

I think we tend to get gluts of players in positions about 6-10 years after a position becomes a cause celebre as a void for England. When I was 12-13, I taught myself to bowl spin after watching Robert Croft toiling to get any turn out of surfaces that Warne got going sideways - not because I was ever going to challenge a selector anywhere, but because I liked dreaming and pretending that I might. I would imagine it's the same childhood logic that sees us with all our top players going to the backrow 10-11 years after all the SArmitage stuff and the subsequent RWC humbling, or that we're going to have a glut of tightheads coming to fruition about 7 years after the 2019 RWC final, or that a bunch of age-group players are gravitating towards 12 after the barren years that we've had.

Puja

I can't remember a top 12 since Will Greenwood tbh?

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:44 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:26 pm CM in tgraph has done a good article on english up and coming centres.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... borthwick/



Alternate link https://archive.ph/a48bm for those without paywall blockers - Mod

Interesting article.

I think we tend to get gluts of players in positions about 6-10 years after a position becomes a cause celebre as a void for England. When I was 12-13, I taught myself to bowl spin after watching Robert Croft toiling to get any turn out of surfaces that Warne got going sideways - not because I was ever going to challenge a selector anywhere, but because I liked dreaming and pretending that I might. I would imagine it's the same childhood logic that sees us with all our top players going to the backrow 10-11 years after all the SArmitage stuff and the subsequent RWC humbling, or that we're going to have a glut of tightheads coming to fruition about 7 years after the 2019 RWC final, or that a bunch of age-group players are gravitating towards 12 after the barren years that we've had.

Puja

I can't remember a top 12 since Will Greenwood tbh?

That is us being nerds and purists though - it became a big media/pundits/casuals thing only a while back when it was seen about stymying poor Fazlet's career by not letting him play in his favoured position of 10 because he had to cover 12.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:44 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:26 pm CM in tgraph has done a good article on english up and coming centres.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... borthwick/



Alternate link https://archive.ph/a48bm for those without paywall blockers - Mod

Interesting article.

I think we tend to get gluts of players in positions about 6-10 years after a position becomes a cause celebre as a void for England. When I was 12-13, I taught myself to bowl spin after watching Robert Croft toiling to get any turn out of surfaces that Warne got going sideways - not because I was ever going to challenge a selector anywhere, but because I liked dreaming and pretending that I might. I would imagine it's the same childhood logic that sees us with all our top players going to the backrow 10-11 years after all the SArmitage stuff and the subsequent RWC humbling, or that we're going to have a glut of tightheads coming to fruition about 7 years after the 2019 RWC final, or that a bunch of age-group players are gravitating towards 12 after the barren years that we've had.

Puja

I can't remember a top 12 since Will Greenwood tbh?

Fair. I think CM is thinking similarly as his article has the biggest section on Woodward putting in a very accomplished display for Tigers where he moves between 12 and 13 creating space for his teammates and shutting it down for Saints.

I'm not a Fazlet fan but we did have a good deal of success with him at 12.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:21 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:44 pm

Interesting article.

I think we tend to get gluts of players in positions about 6-10 years after a position becomes a cause celebre as a void for England. When I was 12-13, I taught myself to bowl spin after watching Robert Croft toiling to get any turn out of surfaces that Warne got going sideways - not because I was ever going to challenge a selector anywhere, but because I liked dreaming and pretending that I might. I would imagine it's the same childhood logic that sees us with all our top players going to the backrow 10-11 years after all the SArmitage stuff and the subsequent RWC humbling, or that we're going to have a glut of tightheads coming to fruition about 7 years after the 2019 RWC final, or that a bunch of age-group players are gravitating towards 12 after the barren years that we've had.

Puja

I can't remember a top 12 since Will Greenwood tbh?

That is us being nerds and purists though - it became a big media/pundits/casuals thing only a while back when it was seen about stymying poor Fazlet's career by not letting him play in his favoured position of 10 because he had to cover 12.

Puja

In no shape or form was Faz a top 12. I don't think that's nerdy or puristy. (define 'top' I spose).

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:23 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:44 pm

Interesting article.

I think we tend to get gluts of players in positions about 6-10 years after a position becomes a cause celebre as a void for England. When I was 12-13, I taught myself to bowl spin after watching Robert Croft toiling to get any turn out of surfaces that Warne got going sideways - not because I was ever going to challenge a selector anywhere, but because I liked dreaming and pretending that I might. I would imagine it's the same childhood logic that sees us with all our top players going to the backrow 10-11 years after all the SArmitage stuff and the subsequent RWC humbling, or that we're going to have a glut of tightheads coming to fruition about 7 years after the 2019 RWC final, or that a bunch of age-group players are gravitating towards 12 after the barren years that we've had.

Puja

I can't remember a top 12 since Will Greenwood tbh?

Fair. I think CM is thinking similarly as his article has the biggest section on Woodward putting in a very accomplished display for Tigers where he moves between 12 and 13 creating space for his teammates and shutting it down for Saints.

I'm not a Fazlet fan but we did have a good deal of success with him at 12.

...or, we had a great deal of success with Ford at 10. Despite Faz

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:36 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:21 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:46 pm

I can't remember a top 12 since Will Greenwood tbh?

That is us being nerds and purists though - it became a big media/pundits/casuals thing only a while back when it was seen about stymying poor Fazlet's career by not letting him play in his favoured position of 10 because he had to cover 12.

Puja

In no shape or form was Faz a top 12. I don't think that's nerdy or puristy. (define 'top' I spose).

Ah, I'm not being clear - I was saying that our lack of a top 12 wasn't a thing that penetrated beyond the nerdy purists until it became a cause in the newspapers because it was harming poor wickle Faz.

Puja

Did we ever actually see Barritt and Joseph together? He was pretty stodgy and looked like a bit of a lump at times alongside Farrell or Tuilagi, but feels like he would have been a perfect foil to Ford/Joseph.

Maybe we already tried it and it sucked.

Anyway… will check out that article. Thank you for the added link.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 7:47 pm Did we ever actually see Barritt and Joseph together? He was pretty stodgy and looked like a bit of a lump at times alongside Farrell or Tuilagi, but feels like he would have been a perfect foil to Ford/Joseph.

Maybe we already tried it and it sucked.

Anyway… will check out that article. Thank you for the added link.

Only time I could find them playing together was for the first hour against Fiji in the 2015 World Cup, with Ford at 10. Farrell and Burgess came on after 62 minutes.

What 2015 world cup?

My ptsd has just returned

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:21 pmThat is us being nerds and purists though - it became a big media/pundits/casuals thing only a while back when it was seen about stymying poor Fazlet's career by not letting him play in his favoured position of 10 because he had to cover 12.

Agreed, the press never really had a problem with Barkely, Noon, Flutey, Hape etc

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:33 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:21 pmThat is us being nerds and purists though - it became a big media/pundits/casuals thing only a while back when it was seen about stymying poor Fazlet's career by not letting him play in his favoured position of 10 because he had to cover 12.

Agreed, the press never really had a problem with Barkely, Noon, Flutey, Hape etc

que? Didn't they? Suspect as usual it was a mix, tho it wasn't really with Faz, who seemed ironically to get a free 'pass'.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:23 pm ....his article has the biggest section on Woodward putting in a very accomplished display for Tigers where he moves between 12 and 13 creating space for his teammates and shutting it down for Saints.

Indeed. In fact, it doesn't really focus or give much colour on anyone else. Woodward looks good, though admittedly it's early days.

I had hoped for a little more from the article if I'm honest. Alongside the more (squad) established names of Lawrence, Dingwall and Beard, it gives brief mentions (some incredibly brief!) to:

Seb Atkinson
Ma'asi White
Waghorn
Butt
Ojomoh
James Williams (at 28, surely a less likely long term bet?)

It doesn't mention Will Joseph, Olly Hartley, Zack Wimbush (is he injured again?) or Jamie Benson (admittedly some of them are more outside bets IMO). I'm sure I've missed others. Either way, it's not really what I call a 'boom' - certainly not in the way we have in the back row anyway.

I also don't feel there's a lot of either (1) X-Factor - some with the skills and pace to make a difference or (2) genuine ballast to breach the gain line. Maybe the modern centre is more a bit of both?

Worth considering that Freeman's best long term home may indeed be at centre - and most of those above are arguably more comfortable at 13 vs. 12. So we really are back to the whole "who plays 12?" debate again. Mad really.

I still can't quite understand why Seb Atkinson hasn't even had a remote look in for the As. What am I missing?

Who else is coming through though that the age grade guys rate? Charlie Griffin was a good 13 who appears to be focusing on the wing now.

Full list something like:

12:
Seb Atkinson
Waghorn
Butt
Ojomoh
Hartley
Benson

13:
Lawrence
Beard
Ma'asi White
Wimbush
Joseph

Anyone else? I've obviously excluded the likes of Marchant and Anyanwu

It is early days for Woodward. A side is about right for him currently. Good signs with him being able to switch between 12 and 13 despite being a primarily a 12 (also had a run out at 15 in pre season and one of coaches noted he's emergency 10 cover as well). Solid defensively at both 12 and 13, nice skill levels and now just need him to bring forth more of a running game.

No one knows why Seb Atkinson doesn't get a look in.

I think there's some good carrying options if we're looking to get over the gain line there. Waghorn, Ma'asi White, Wimbush, Lawrence, Hartley and Butt can do it through power game. I do think Butt is playing at the top of his game at the minute though and isn't someone who's going to kick on again. Beard, Joseph and Ojomoh are all capable of making line breaks though in a less direct fashion.

If we're going to persist with the likes of Freeman and Roebuck on the wing then there's certainly an argument for using them off their wing in the middle of the pitch to run hard lines. We could also bring Steward back in at 15 and use him like Tigers do as almost a third centre at times, coming into the line late and then attacking as a 13/15 hybrid. There's options where we don't necessarily need a big centre if the lads with the speed and skill have enough physical presence and there's options in the back three.

Sam Spink might come into the conversation if he could get some game time. Think he's injured so has had little opportunity. Wimbush has been injured for pretty much the whole season so he hasnt had chance to press his claims.

Litchfield too maybe?