RugbyRebels

The power failure in Downing Street as May attempts to say she's strong and stable about sums up where she is, more than ever she's only there as who else?

And one could add would the last one out please turn off the lights, but if power failures are to be the norm in brexit Britain there's no need to worry

Labour announce a review into Universal Credit rather than saying they're set to announce an alternative, perhaps drawing inspiration from their brexit policy. I suppose if you're busy arranging police protection for your own MPs from your own supporters it does rather reduce the time to work on actual policies

I don’t think UC actually was a bad idea, but the administration and implementation are appalling, and yet the Tories are left free to roll out the abomination it's become and it's another issue the official opposition is proving no opposition on

Digby wrote:Labour announce a review into Universal Credit rather than saying they're set to announce an alternative, perhaps drawing inspiration from their brexit policy. I suppose if you're busy arranging police protection for your own MPs from your own supporters it does rather reduce the time to work on actual policies

I don’t think UC actually was a bad idea, but the administration and implementation are appalling, and yet the Tories are left free to roll out the abomination it's become and it's another issue the official opposition is proving no opposition on

You really think a one size fits all approach is a good idea? You need your head looked at.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:Labour announce a review into Universal Credit rather than saying they're set to announce an alternative, perhaps drawing inspiration from their brexit policy. I suppose if you're busy arranging police protection for your own MPs from your own supporters it does rather reduce the time to work on actual policies

I don’t think UC actually was a bad idea, but the administration and implementation are appalling, and yet the Tories are left free to roll out the abomination it's become and it's another issue the official opposition is proving no opposition on

You really think a one size fits all approach is a good idea? You need your head looked at.

While UC may not be great, a one-size approach can often be cheaper and simpler to put in place and has the added benefit of removing any means of cheating it AND therefore any means of complaining about people cheating it.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:Labour announce a review into Universal Credit rather than saying they're set to announce an alternative, perhaps drawing inspiration from their brexit policy. I suppose if you're busy arranging police protection for your own MPs from your own supporters it does rather reduce the time to work on actual policies

I don’t think UC actually was a bad idea, but the administration and implementation are appalling, and yet the Tories are left free to roll out the abomination it's become and it's another issue the official opposition is proving no opposition on

You really think a one size fits all approach is a good idea? You need your head looked at.

One size fits all like stealing 10% of all listed UK companies, nationalising companies on the cheap, with both stemming from a profound lack of respect for property rights

(In fairness I'm not in advance set against employee ownership, but Comrade John's model is a shit version)

Stom wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:Labour announce a review into Universal Credit rather than saying they're set to announce an alternative, perhaps drawing inspiration from their brexit policy. I suppose if you're busy arranging police protection for your own MPs from your own supporters it does rather reduce the time to work on actual policies

I don’t think UC actually was a bad idea, but the administration and implementation are appalling, and yet the Tories are left free to roll out the abomination it's become and it's another issue the official opposition is proving no opposition on

You really think a one size fits all approach is a good idea? You need your head looked at.

While UC may not be great, a one-size approach can often be cheaper and simpler to put in place and has the added benefit of removing any means of cheating it AND therefore any means of complaining about people cheating it.

And it's no bad thing to promote work over benefits, but they really needed more work and frankly some better ideas on how to roll it out. It's hardly just politics but over and over we see management wanting to show they're doing something and pushing ahead with a plan before it's ready

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:Labour announce a review into Universal Credit rather than saying they're set to announce an alternative, perhaps drawing inspiration from their brexit policy. I suppose if you're busy arranging police protection for your own MPs from your own supporters it does rather reduce the time to work on actual policies

I don’t think UC actually was a bad idea, but the administration and implementation are appalling, and yet the Tories are left free to roll out the abomination it's become and it's another issue the official opposition is proving no opposition on

You really think a one size fits all approach is a good idea? You need your head looked at.

One size fits all like stealing 10% of all listed UK companies, nationalising companies on the cheap, with both stemming from a profound lack of respect for property rights

(In fairness I'm not in advance set against employee ownership, but Comrade John's model is a shit version)

Anyone who agrees with Marx about his theory of surplus labour would not see it as stealing.

Is UC one size fits all or is it putting all current benefits under one system making application for and administration of easier? The problem with the current system is that is about as joined up as a two year old’s handwriting. A lot of people who are eligible for benefits don’t realise it because they need yet another form to apply for it and therefore don’t even know such a benefit exists. If the DWP can get the IT to work it’ll make life easier for those on benefits. Granted it’s a big if.

Mellsblue wrote:Is UC one size fits all or is it putting all current benefits under one system making application for and administration of easier? The problem with the current system is that is about as joined up as a two year old’s handwriting. A lot of people who are eligible for benefits don’t realise it because they need yet another form to apply for it and therefore don’t even know such a benefit exists. If the DWP can get the IT to work it’ll make life easier for those on benefits. Granted it’s a big if.

Aye, it's a huge mess. But at least it's not as bad as over here. Our child benefit always gets delayed because we are naughty dirty foreigners who had a disgusting home birth...

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Is UC one size fits all or is it putting all current benefits under one system making application for and administration of easier? The problem with the current system is that is about as joined up as a two year old’s handwriting. A lot of people who are eligible for benefits don’t realise it because they need yet another form to apply for it and therefore don’t even know such a benefit exists. If the DWP can get the IT to work it’ll make life easier for those on benefits. Granted it’s a big if.

Aye, it's a huge mess. But at least it's not as bad as over here. Our child benefit always gets delayed because we are naughty dirty foreigners who had a disgusting home birth...

Instead of comparing against bad examples, why not compare against good ones. You talk about home birth, in Netherlands they have a great system of support for a recent mother, where a helper comes to help out with almost everything for about 10 days immediately after the birth. It's called kraamzorg, and it's a fantastic idea with positive outcomes.

Now you can have a mentality (that seems to me at least being espoused by Stom) that as long as we're better than some country somewhere in the world where things are worse, then we shouldn't really complain... or we can have a mentality that the costs and benefits of policies are not limited to the pure numbers of pounds in the budget from the government's accounts, but can feed through into a healthier society and in the end surely a more productive one or vice versa.

Zhivago wrote:

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Is UC one size fits all or is it putting all current benefits under one system making application for and administration of easier? The problem with the current system is that is about as joined up as a two year old’s handwriting. A lot of people who are eligible for benefits don’t realise it because they need yet another form to apply for it and therefore don’t even know such a benefit exists. If the DWP can get the IT to work it’ll make life easier for those on benefits. Granted it’s a big if.

Aye, it's a huge mess. But at least it's not as bad as over here. Our child benefit always gets delayed because we are naughty dirty foreigners who had a disgusting home birth...

Instead of comparing against bad examples, why not compare against good ones. You talk about home birth, in Netherlands they have a great system of support for a recent mother, where a helper comes to help out with almost everything for about 10 days immediately after the birth. It's called kraamzorg, and it's a fantastic idea with positive outcomes.

Now you can have a mentality (that seems to me at least being espoused by Stom) that as long as we're better than some country somewhere in the world where things are worse, then we shouldn't really complain... or we can have a mentality that the costs and benefits of policies are not limited to the pure numbers of pounds in the budget from the government's accounts, but can feed through into a healthier society and in the end surely a more productive one or vice versa.

I’m surprised a man of your means needs such help from the state. I have never used the public sector for a service I can pay for myself.

Mostly, you misinterpreted Stom. He’s a solid lefty, he is just venting at his situation.

Mellsblue wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Stom wrote:
Aye, it's a huge mess. But at least it's not as bad as over here. Our child benefit always gets delayed because we are naughty dirty foreigners who had a disgusting home birth...

Instead of comparing against bad examples, why not compare against good ones. You talk about home birth, in Netherlands they have a great system of support for a recent mother, where a helper comes to help out with almost everything for about 10 days immediately after the birth. It's called kraamzorg, and it's a fantastic idea with positive outcomes.

Now you can have a mentality (that seems to me at least being espoused by Stom) that as long as we're better than some country somewhere in the world where things are worse, then we shouldn't really complain... or we can have a mentality that the costs and benefits of policies are not limited to the pure numbers of pounds in the budget from the government's accounts, but can feed through into a healthier society and in the end surely a more productive one or vice versa.

I’m surprised a man of your means needs such help from the state. I have never used the public sector for a service I can pay for myself.

Mostly, you misinterpreted Stom. He’s a solid lefty, he is just venting at his situation.

Really? Even with the general standard of healthcare (although I understand it's got worse, it was declining while I was still there) provision, especially for childbirth.

Or what about your free bus pass?

A standing ovation at the Labour conference for the idea of striking to force an election, which made me ponder on whether I'd strike in the event of a win for the lunatic that is Corbyn

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
Instead of comparing against bad examples, why not compare against good ones. You talk about home birth, in Netherlands they have a great system of support for a recent mother, where a helper comes to help out with almost everything for about 10 days immediately after the birth. It's called kraamzorg, and it's a fantastic idea with positive outcomes.

Now you can have a mentality (that seems to me at least being espoused by Stom) that as long as we're better than some country somewhere in the world where things are worse, then we shouldn't really complain... or we can have a mentality that the costs and benefits of policies are not limited to the pure numbers of pounds in the budget from the government's accounts, but can feed through into a healthier society and in the end surely a more productive one or vice versa.

I’m surprised a man of your means needs such help from the state. I have never used the public sector for a service I can pay for myself.

Mostly, you misinterpreted Stom. He’s a solid lefty, he is just venting at his situation.

Really? Even with the general standard of healthcare (although I understand it's got worse, it was declining while I was still there) provision, especially for childbirth.

Or what about your free bus pass?

I’m confused at what you’re aiming at.

If you think I was attacking you then, for clarity, my initial statement was aimed at Zhivago, not you. I don’t agree with your politics but at least you don’t come on here, on your high horse, defending Corbyn and demanding a pure socialist economy whilst simulataneously telling us all about your £500k house and large pay packet.
My second statement was that by comparing UK provision v Hungarian provision and stating that the UK provision is better you weren’t defending the UK provision.

Sadly I am not old enough for a bus pass, I am really looking forward to retirement though. I do donate money to my youngest kids school to pay for his free school lunches, and I do make donations to the local hospital to cover the costs of the kids’ prescriptions and dental treatment, though that is obviously complete guesswork, cost wise. I also make a donation to my doctor’s charity for every appointment I have, though that only equates to about £20 a year. Doesn’t sound like much, and it isn’t, but I don’t have much contact with free public sector services beyond the kids’ education and health care. If everyone who could afford it did so, the nations finances would be in a better shape and/or we could channel that money to people who really needed it. I take this to the point of berating my father for pocketing his winter fuel allowance whilst spending a hefty chunk of the winter in warmer climes. Still it helps put fuel in his Porsche, Lotus and Mercedes, not sure that is the fuel Brown intended mind. Blanket state handouts = madness. On the plus side, he’s not draining my inheritance quite so much. Thank you Gordon Brown for preserving a small part of my inheritance; well, my kids’ inheritance.

Mellsblue wrote:

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: I’m surprised a man of your means needs such help from the state. I have never used the public sector for a service I can pay for myself.

Mostly, you misinterpreted Stom. He’s a solid lefty, he is just venting at his situation.

Really? Even with the general standard of healthcare (although I understand it's got worse, it was declining while I was still there) provision, especially for childbirth.

Or what about your free bus pass?

I’m confused at what you’re aiming at.

If you think I was attacking you then, for clarity, my initial statement was aimed at Zhivago, not you. I don’t agree with your politics but at least you don’t come on here, on your high horse, defending Corbyn and demanding a pure socialist economy whilst simulataneously telling us all about your £500k house and large pay packet.
My second statement was that by comparing UK provision v Hungarian provision and stating that the UK provision is better you weren’t defending the UK provision.

Sadly I am not old enough for a bus pass, I am really looking forward to retirement though. I do donate money to my youngest kids school to pay for his free school lunches, and I do make donations to the local hospital to cover the costs of the kids’ prescriptions and dental treatment, though that is obviously complete guesswork, cost wise. I also make a donation to my doctor’s charity for every appointment I have, though that only equates to about £20 a year. Doesn’t sound like much, and it isn’t, but I don’t have much contact with free public sector services beyond the kids’ education and health care. If everyone who could afford it did so, the nations finances would be in a better shape and/or we could channel that money to people who really needed it. I take this to the point of berating my father for pocketing his winter fuel allowance whilst spending a hefty chunk of the winter in warmer climes. Still it helps put fuel in his Porsche, Lotus and Mercedes, not sure that is the fuel Brown intended mind. Blanket state handouts = madness. On the plus side, he’s not draining my inheritance quite so much. Thank you Gordon Brown for preserving a small part of my inheritance; well, my kids’ inheritance.

Glad you didn't rise to the bait :p

I do think it would be worth the extra cost to make blanket payments to get rid of the idea that people scam so much money out of "my pocket" through cheating benefits, when the sum is minuscule in comparison.

And it is practically impossible to have a watertight means tested benefits system, so people will always find a way to cheat it. And with the standard - and ownership - of the newspapers, if there is some cheating going on, they're going to make a song and dance about it to disguise their cheating on corporation tax and the beneficial situation companies find themselves in compared to the average Joe.

For me, that extra 5p a month, or whatever it would be, would be entirely worthwhile to close down an avenue of distraction.

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Stom wrote:
Really? Even with the general standard of healthcare (although I understand it's got worse, it was declining while I was still there) provision, especially for childbirth.

Or what about your free bus pass?

I’m confused at what you’re aiming at.

If you think I was attacking you then, for clarity, my initial statement was aimed at Zhivago, not you. I don’t agree with your politics but at least you don’t come on here, on your high horse, defending Corbyn and demanding a pure socialist economy whilst simulataneously telling us all about your £500k house and large pay packet.
My second statement was that by comparing UK provision v Hungarian provision and stating that the UK provision is better you weren’t defending the UK provision.

Sadly I am not old enough for a bus pass, I am really looking forward to retirement though. I do donate money to my youngest kids school to pay for his free school lunches, and I do make donations to the local hospital to cover the costs of the kids’ prescriptions and dental treatment, though that is obviously complete guesswork, cost wise. I also make a donation to my doctor’s charity for every appointment I have, though that only equates to about £20 a year. Doesn’t sound like much, and it isn’t, but I don’t have much contact with free public sector services beyond the kids’ education and health care. If everyone who could afford it did so, the nations finances would be in a better shape and/or we could channel that money to people who really needed it. I take this to the point of berating my father for pocketing his winter fuel allowance whilst spending a hefty chunk of the winter in warmer climes. Still it helps put fuel in his Porsche, Lotus and Mercedes, not sure that is the fuel Brown intended mind. Blanket state handouts = madness. On the plus side, he’s not draining my inheritance quite so much. Thank you Gordon Brown for preserving a small part of my inheritance; well, my kids’ inheritance.

Glad you didn't rise to the bait :p

I do think it would be worth the extra cost to make blanket payments to get rid of the idea that people scam so much money out of "my pocket" through cheating benefits, when the sum is minuscule in comparison.

And it is practically impossible to have a watertight means tested benefits system, so people will always find a way to cheat it. And with the standard - and ownership - of the newspapers, if there is some cheating going on, they're going to make a song and dance about it to disguise their cheating on corporation tax and the beneficial situation companies find themselves in compared to the average Joe.

For me, that extra 5p a month, or whatever it would be, would be entirely worthwhile to close down an avenue of distraction.

I only bit because I tried to defend a lefty and received no thanks whatsoever.

As a spend thrift, bean counting Tory scum I obviously want bang for buck for tax payers money, and blanket schemes are often the best way to achieve that. However, sometimes things are just so unfair and have such bad optics (not politically but for fairness) that if it does cost more in admin than you save in payments I think it’s worth it.
If we can get IT systems like UC off the ground then hopefully there will be an end to blanket benefits just because it’s the cheapest way of doing it.

Conference over and nobody has a clue what our aims for Brexit are or what we can get past the EU, the 27, or parliament

Digby wrote:Conference over and nobody has a clue what our aims for Brexit are or what we can get past the EU, the 27, or parliament

I think that the only aim of this Tory conference was to get through with May still in post. On that basis it can be seen as a success.

I can’t help thinking that we are now at the point where the only 2 options on the table are hard brexit or no brexit. I can’t see the gaps that currently exist being closed. The Irish border alone is looking like too much of a deal breaker. I would be fascinated to know quite which of these 2 May is working towards.

Some optimism in the media today that a deal on the Irish border issue isn’t too far off. But, I’m still finding little to get too optimistic about. There is still a long long way to go and plenty of hurdles.

I’m all for single market membership whilst we sort this out. At least it gives us breathing space.

I'm all for single market membership

Digby wrote:I'm all for single market membership

I think that would get the majority of votes if polled. But the hardliners would go mental.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:I'm all for single market membership

I think that would get the majority of votes if polled. But the hardliners would go mental.

In such instance they'd merely remain mental

Well apparently of May does some kind of soft Brexit deal, the hardliners will vote against the next budget, and thus effectively bring down the government.

There is no compromise with some of these people.

They'd remain mental, perhaps they could switch parties to the DUP just to make their insanity clear

Universal Credit could use a rebranding, Sporadic Benefits perhaps