RugbyRebels

septic 9 wrote:that's Duhan VDM confirmed as a Scot abroad next season

Can't blame him.

There's some pish on the usual pages about his "using" Edinburgh. Like they and the SRU haven't benefitted from his time here or the SRU wont continue to benefit.

I don't mind him going if the pay packet is as large as has been suggested. I do mind him going to Worcester. Was no better club interested? They've got some decent young talent on the wing too and I don't see him really developing his game there.

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote:that's Duhan VDM confirmed as a Scot abroad next season

Can't blame him.

There's some pish on the usual pages about his "using" Edinburgh. Like they and the SRU haven't benefitted from his time here or the SRU wont continue to benefit.

I'd obviously have liked him to stay with edin, but they used each other, don't see the problem with that. He needed a chance, SRU took a punt on an injury prone player who could easily have disappeared from the game. SRU have an international winger, VDM has a move which should if he is sensible be life changing financially. Too many still imagine players only should play for the jersey and never stop to ask themselves if they would turn down a move to another employer for double the salary. And some then lie about the answer

[/quote] I'd obviously have liked him to stay with edin, but they used each other, don't see the problem with that. He needed a chance, SRU took a punt on an injury prone player who could easily have disappeared from the game. SRU have an international winger, VDM has a move which should if he is sensible be life changing financially. Too many still imagine players only should play for the jersey and never stop to ask themselves if they would turn down a move to another employer for double the salary. And some then lie about the answer[/quote]

I take it the bold bit confirms that he is still available to Townsend for the foreseeable ?

septic 9 wrote:

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote:that's Duhan VDM confirmed as a Scot abroad next season

Can't blame him.

There's some pish on the usual pages about his "using" Edinburgh. Like they and the SRU haven't benefitted from his time here or the SRU wont continue to benefit.

I'd obviously have liked him to stay with edin, but they used each other, don't see the problem with that. He needed a chance, SRU took a punt on an injury prone player who could easily have disappeared from the game. SRU have an international winger, VDM has a move which should if he is sensible be life changing financially. Too many still imagine players only should play for the jersey and never stop to ask themselves if they would turn down a move to another employer for double the salary. And some then lie about the answer

Aye, they are also conveniently forgetting Duhan signed 3 contracts with Edinburgh so the SRU could probably have tied him up for longer last January.

As it is he goes having spent the same number of years as Richie Gray did at Glasgow before moving for the money. There weren't that many complaints about that at the time.

Scottish Caley Fan wrote:

I'd obviously have liked him to stay with edin, but they used each other, don't see the problem with that. He needed a chance, SRU took a punt on an injury prone player who could easily have disappeared from the game. SRU have an international winger, VDM has a move which should if he is sensible be life changing financially. Too many still imagine players only should play for the jersey and never stop to ask themselves if they would turn down a move to another employer for double the salary. And some then lie about the answer[/quote]

I take it the bold bit confirms that he is still available to Townsend for the foreseeable ?[/quote]

of course. For the purposes of international rugby he is now a Scot, available to Scotland and no-one else, and he has to be released if requested (inside international test "windows".

Only 2 things could change that.
either a rule change by World Rugby on eligibility; or SRU adopting a "fortress Scotland" policy (ie only picking players playing in Scotland. Neither are in any way remotely likely to put it mildly

I can't blame Duhan for moving on if he has an offer that he can't ignore but does this not leave a sour taste for some people? I'm fine with players qualifying on residency and the raising of the bar to 5 years will help but for a newly available and newly capped international to move on it doesn't exactly show the sense of loyalty and belonging that people have claimed residency qualification brings.

I know we are the beneficiary here, having a true international quality winger available to us now but it just doesn't sit right.

To be honest, I'm just being consistent with my view point on this. I thought the same way when Riki Flutey went off to France and the circumstances here seem very similar. Just because the shoe is on our foot now, I can't easily change my view on how mercenary this feels

stevedog1980 wrote:I can't blame Duhan for moving on if he has an offer that he can't ignore but does this not leave a sour taste for some people? I'm fine with players qualifying on residency and the raising of the bar to 5 years will help but for a newly available and newly capped international to move on it doesn't exactly show the sense of loyalty and belonging that people have claimed residency qualification brings.

I know we are the beneficiary here, having a true international quality winger available to us now but it just doesn't sit right.

To be honest, I'm just being consistent with my view point on this. I thought the same way when Riki Flutey went off to France and the circumstances here seem very similar. Just because the shoe is on our foot now, I can't easily change my view on how mercenary this feels

No sour taste for me, but then I live in the real world where players have rugby as a career, not a hobby
Players who move half way round the world, sometimes on their own but sometimes uprooting family as well, to spend several years here are making quite a commitment IMHO. Not all become stars and big earners. Those who do then have a short career. If you were offered double your salary to move, would you, or would you show loyalty because your current employer had been good to you. We need to consider the player as a "worker" not a relic of 30 or 40 years ago

perhaps if you appreciated what it takes to move half way round the world to get a job, then be basically invalided out of it, be lucky get a second chance then realise at 25 (26 this year) you may not have that many years left to maximise your income - life changing income, you'd get the point.

When we sign guys like these, we know exactly what the score is. There is risk as well as reward. If you look from an SRU perspective, obviously they don't want to weaken our teams, but OTOH, we have again broadened the player base we have to chose from. I have yet to hear an argument that says we don't need to do that.

He's given a hell of a lot to Edinburgh, even if it doesn't look great to leave so soon after qualification. And there's only so much he can keep doing for Edinburgh anyway with the Cockerill/Hodge/VDW style of play.

It would be great to keep the superstars at Edinburgh and Glasgow because they want to be there, but hard to blame them at the moment if they don't.

stevedog1980 wrote:I can't blame Duhan for moving on if he has an offer that he can't ignore but does this not leave a sour taste for some people? I'm fine with players qualifying on residency and the raising of the bar to 5 years will help but for a newly available and newly capped international to move on it doesn't exactly show the sense of loyalty and belonging that people have claimed residency qualification brings.

I know we are the beneficiary here, having a true international quality winger available to us now but it just doesn't sit right.

To be honest, I'm just being consistent with my view point on this. I thought the same way when Riki Flutey went off to France and the circumstances here seem very similar. Just because the shoe is on our foot now, I can't easily change my view on how mercenary this feels

Did it leave a sour taste when Gray Snr took advantage of years of investment to leave for bigger money after 4 years? Where was his loyalty?

Duhan signed 3 contracts for Edinburgh, both parties had their eyes open with those deals.

Here's the other thing, I don't think those international caps did that much to his value. This deal was in the works for months. Worcester are now going to lose a player for several weeks every season and need to ease him back in after summer tours.

Davidson to Gloucester. Feels like this was the point on him moving to Edinburgh. Build him up and not losing him to the English championship or whatever.
Maybe wrong but seemed to stall near the end at Glasgow but has been good for Edinburgh. Leaves Edinburgh with 4 SQ locks I think.

My message literally started with "I can't blame Duhan for moving". I'm not talking about this from an Edinburgh perspective but from a nationalised Scottish perspective.

Do I blame him for maximising his income? Not in the slightest, I'd do the same thing. Would I leave the country for a better wage? Yup, have done in the past and probably will do again.

I don't feel that Edinburgh have been used by Duhan, nor have the SRU. I just feel it doesn't look good for the SRU when a newly qualified player moves on straight away. International qualification is always a sticky subject and this is just one of those situations where it's brought starkly into focus

Big D wrote:Davidson to Gloucester. Feels like this was the point on him moving to Edinburgh. Build him up and not losing him to the English championship or whatever.
Maybe wrong but seemed to stall near the end at Glasgow but has been good for Edinburgh. Leaves Edinburgh with 4 SQ locks I think.

Has anyone actually seen Ferreira play to judge if he's a lot better? It has seemed that Cockers prefers Hodgson, but our lock options are all really middle of the road. Every player in there has a strength but some noticeable weaknesses.

Davidson's always looked good whenever I've seen him play for Newcastle, Glasgow or Edinburgh but he's also had a lot of clubs for a relatively young player.

Without COVID I expect he may have stayed on for next year then moved. A lot of forensic budget management going on.

switchskier wrote:

Big D wrote:Davidson to Gloucester. Feels like this was the point on him moving to Edinburgh. Build him up and not losing him to the English championship or whatever.
Maybe wrong but seemed to stall near the end at Glasgow but has been good for Edinburgh. Leaves Edinburgh with 4 SQ locks I think.

Has anyone actually seen Ferreira play to judge if he's a lot better? It has seemed that Cockers prefers Hodgson, but our lock options are all really middle of the road. Every player in there has a strength but some noticeable weaknesses.

Davidson's always looked good whenever I've seen him play for Newcastle, Glasgow or Edinburgh but he's also had a lot of clubs for a relatively young player.

He's only on a 1 year deal.

Edinburgh still have GG, Toolis Sykes, Hodgson, and Carmichael from a SQ POV and I think we'll start to see a spread of our 24-28 year olds the next couple of years.

As Stevedog said, DVDM hasn't done anything wrong and Edinburgh can't feel hard done by. From their perspective it is exactly the same as someone like Richie Gray moving on after several years.

The international qualification part is where it does leave a funny taste/make the rules seem a bit iffy. I'm all for a route to qualification by residency (although would change the rules a bit) as someone can be every bit as Scottish even if they weren't born here. The point of international rugby is to have different nationalities competing against each other. However, when someone leaves as soon as they are qualified it does suggest that they may not actually have formed any lasting connection with the country and both parties have "used" the rules to their advantage rather than as they were intended (as they are entitled to do of course).

It's the same reason I think it's a bit depressing if you hear a kilted kiwi five years into retirement back in New Zealand and viewing their time playing for Scotland as some kind of cool overseas experience (as opposed to someone like Sean Lineen). I'm not doubting their commitment when playing but there is meant to be something different about international sport compared to club sport.

Cameo wrote:As Stevedog said, DVDM hasn't done anything wrong and Edinburgh can't feel hard done by. From their perspective it is exactly the same as someone like Richie Gray moving on after several years.

The international qualification part is where it does leave a funny taste/make the rules seem a bit iffy. I'm all for a route to qualification by residency (although would change the rules a bit) as someone can be every bit as Scottish even if they weren't born here. The point of international rugby is to have different nationalities competing against each other. However, when someone leaves as soon as they are qualified it does suggest that they may not actually have formed any lasting connection with the country and both parties have "used" the rules to their advantage rather than as they were intended (as they are entitled to do of course).

It's the same reason I think it's a bit depressing if you hear a kilted kiwi five years into retirement back in New Zealand and viewing their time playing for Scotland as some kind of cool overseas experience (as opposed to someone like Sean Lineen). I'm not doubting their commitment when playing but there is meant to be something different about international sport compared to club sport.

Nail on the head there.

Puja

Beautiful solo score from Redpath just now. Still not sounding like he's opting for Scotland though.

That was a great game! If he continues to develop, he could certainly pick up a fair fee caps for us. However, fewer caps for England probably still means more money overall. I’m sadly just coming to terms with professionalism!

Didn’t realise that Gary Graham has been playing well at 8 for Newcastle this season! Coached by one of the best there as well!

Hopefully, we’ll see him in the squad, whenever it’s named.

Nathan Hines interview on "le French Rugby Podcast"

I see that Ashman finally got ten minutes off the bench for Sale last night. One successful line out, no other stats.

Looks like Matt Scott had a good game though. 85 meters with ball in hand, two clean line breaks and one interception. By comparison Redpath played 26 minutes, 1 clean line break and 4 defenders beaten (0 meters made net though).

Redpath was on the bench and Bath got absolutely trampled though. Good to hear Scott having some sort of impact though. He’s really struggled to get on the ball in most of the Leicester games I’ve seen.

Gray, Skinner, Hogg all start for Exeter and SHC on the bench. Didn’t realise this will be Hogg’s first game since Boxing Day, according to BBC.

switchskier wrote:I see that Ashman finally got ten minutes off the bench for Sale last night. One successful line out, no other stats.

Looks like Matt Scott had a good game though. 85 meters with ball in hand, two clean line breaks and one interception. By comparison Redpath played 26 minutes, 1 clean line break and 4 defenders beaten (0 meters made net though).

Stats will fool you. Pretty much all of his metres and one of his "line breaks" came from that interception. I genuinely couldn't tell you where his other "line break" was and suspect it might be a figment of the stats guy's imagination. Not his fault, as Leicester just did anti-rugby pretty much all game.

Puja

Worth mentioning that with no relegation next year those moving down south know they'll be playing in the prem.