RugbyRebels

Timbo wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Er didn't they get in front of our jumper twice? Or are we blaming the hooker?

once I thought (13/14), and we pulled their lineout apart (8/13)- or are we blaming their hooker

Hard to dispute we had the better of the lineout, frankly, until it was too late. Mauling..different story.

I think the one lost lineout was Ken Owens first throw. I don't really get sending on a new hooker when his first action is going to be a crucial 5m lineout, but you see it happen all the time. I remember watching it and it seemed to me like Kruis was looking at Whitelock and thinking 'I'm well marked here' but before he could change the call the ball was thrown. Maybe George would have read Kruis better in that situation. Could be wrong but that's what it looked like to me.

Agree with all that; I do wonder what is going through a coaches mind when they do something like that, ignoring the situational aspect. And there must be something in the Kruis/George connection. Thought Gatland was trigger happy earlier taking POM, Mako and AWJ off in a short space of time- first scrum thereafter was a key point of the game- possibly not all keyed into the intensity, the guys coming on...who knows.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Mauling..different story.

Contact work wasn't good from anyone today really, maul, tackles, ruck... it was all a bit nice.

There's a moment in the 23rd minute where Daly chases a box kick (so an unusual play) and the ball bobbles around with SOB managing to fall on it, and despite having the option of chasing our own kick Cane wins an easy pen with SOB forced to hold on.



And as I look at the moment before Cane gets over the ball and before Kruis can support SOB I'm looking at Kruis and how gentle he is with Daly. And maybe he should be nice, but for me Daly is in the way of a lock needing to clear out and in this moment Daly should be cleared out by the big lock which would come with the advantage of clearing out Cane too.

i noticed that and wondered what Daly himself was thinking!

I don't know why but I thought of Marin Keown, and the idea that if there was a ball coming in that needed clearing and his fullback or one of his midfielders was in the way then they'd surely be getting cleared out too as he went to ensure the ball wasn't a danger. And bollocks to his team mate, there's a time to be nice, and a time to do your job.

And as you say, what's Daly doing anyway, if Daly doesn't want to get wiped out get out of there. At their best the likes of POC, Corry, Johnson on their various tour would've happily cleared their own winger out, and we need that edge to have even a chance to win

AWJ looked fecked from an earlier knock. However Barnes on the Mako substitution made me smile. Great in the loose not so good in the scrum blah blah .... Next scrum goes back at a rate of knots.

That said not sure POM was really at the races today......from captain to non starter in a week I suspect.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Contact work wasn't good from anyone today really, maul, tackles, ruck... it was all a bit nice.

There's a moment in the 23rd minute where Daly chases a box kick (so an unusual play) and the ball bobbles around with SOB managing to fall on it, and despite having the option of chasing our own kick Cane wins an easy pen with SOB forced to hold on.



And as I look at the moment before Cane gets over the ball and before Kruis can support SOB I'm looking at Kruis and how gentle he is with Daly. And maybe he should be nice, but for me Daly is in the way of a lock needing to clear out and in this moment Daly should be cleared out by the big lock which would come with the advantage of clearing out Cane too.

i noticed that and wondered what Daly himself was thinking!

I don't know why but I thought of Marin Keown, and the idea that if there was a ball coming in that needed clearing and his fullback or one of his midfielders was in the way then they'd surely be getting cleared out too as he went to ensure the ball wasn't a danger. And bollocks to his team mate, there's a time to be nice, and a time to do your job.

And as you say, what's Daly doing anyway, if Daly doesn't want to get wiped out get out of there. At their best the likes of POC, Corry, Johnson on their various tour would've happily cleared their own winger out, and we need that edge to have even a chance to win

For a brief moment Daly looked like he had been on a night of fizzy...

p/d wrote:AWJ looked fecked from an earlier knock. However Barnes on the Mako substitution made me smile. Great in the loose not so good in the scrum blah blah .... Next scrum goes back at a rate of knots.

That said not sure POM was really at the races today......from captain to non starter in a week I suspect.

yep commented on that on the match thread. He's been saying Mako can't scrum for shyte for months and that McGrath should start, and obviously couldn't row back from that.

I hate Barnes, but to be fair, most pundits/commentators were talking up McGrath and Furlong before the tour.

Scrumhead wrote:I hate Barnes, but to be fair, most pundits/commentators were talking up McGrath and Furlong before the tour.

the point was he has actively been talking Mako down, specifically scrummaging

So, Nowell at 15 on Tuesday........

Mellsblue wrote:So, Nowell at 15 on Tuesday........

And Kruis dropped from first team..... mind you AWJ had a blinder yesterday

I'll be interested to see how Nowell goes at 15.

I still feel that a combination of Daly, Nowell and Watson is our best back three, just not sure which of them should move to 15? On the basis that he plays there the most at club level, Watson is the most logical, but I think 15 might actually be a better fit for Nowell.

Scrumhead wrote:I'll be interested to see how Nowell goes at 15.

I still feel that a combination of Daly, Nowell and Watson is our best back three, just not sure which of them should move to 15? On the basis that he plays there the most at club level, Watson is the most logical, but I think 15 might actually be a better fit for Nowell.

Yeah, it's interesting. All 3 have played FB before, though only Watson both often enough and recently enough to be fully ingrained at the position (a problem that can easily be sorted ahead of the RWC19 with club co-operation).
Of the 3, Watson's the best FB - but he's also the best winger.
Of the 3, Daly is the best rugby player, and it's simply a lack of game-time in the back 3 that casts any doubts over him at all - and yet he's still amongst our 3 best back 3 players.
Of the 3, Nowell's game seems most suited to playing FB (or possibly least suited to playing wing), but has the least experience there, and IIRC his experience there is the least recent.

Personally, I'd also add in May - who's probably had more experience at FB than Nowell, but really isn't a FB. Form being neutral, I'd have May on the wing ahead of Nowell, but reversed that last season due to form; and I'd have all 4 in my match-day 23.

Were I Eddie...
May and Daly on the wings, Watson at FB, Nowell on the bench. Exeter and Wasps "asked" under the EPS agreement to get game time for Nowell at FB, and Daly at wing.
I'd then juggle the 4 of them depending on form and opposition.

Eddie though, (seems to) like a workhorse winger - I just don't like sacrificing pace to get it; I also think that Daly especially works plenty hard enough to do that duty... once he's more accustomed to playing on the wing, and not constantly having to halt his instincts to remember that he's not playing OC. I'd also suggest that Jonny against Argentina in November showed that he's plenty capable of being a workhorse winger; you just need to find his brain, and put it in gear (honestly, his workrate in that match was unbelievable).

Once Daly has the experience at wing, and Nowell at FB; then the options for using the 4 of them would be fantastic, and I'd probably be wanting to start Nowell again (if you've got the player with more workrate/less ipmact, you want to start him), then picking one of Watson, Daly, May to sit on the bench would be... a lovely probelm to have.
Nothing scares an opponent like pace; and I don't think we can put out anything scarier than Daly, May, Watson.


ETA: having typed that little essay/stream of consciousness; it probably should have been in the "Eddie: phase 2" thread; sorry

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:So, Nowell at 15 on Tuesday........

And Kruis dropped from first team..... mind you AWJ had a blinder yesterday

JJ has certainly fallen from grace, along with North. Don't get the Kruis piece.....looks like he will bench for the test side.

Banquo wrote:

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:So, Nowell at 15 on Tuesday........

And Kruis dropped from first team..... mind you AWJ had a blinder yesterday

JJ has certainly fallen from grace, along with North. Don't get the Kruis piece.....looks like he will bench for the test side.

Perhaps they just feel Kruis needs game time. For all we know he might have put himself forward for the bench on Tuesday

For what it's worth I would look at familiarity for next test. Itoje alongside Kruis, Sexton with Murray and shake up the backrow. Otherwise as is

Banquo wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:
I'd prefer to see them run on instinct than be thinking about which arm to carry with, though ideally they would progress their skill set. Given the number who don't carry the ball correctly it suggests it's not a simple act to correct

they shouldn't have to think about it. It's incredibly easy to correct or I was unusually adept and I know which of those I'm plumping for.

agreed

As an aside on this were the two of you relieved that by their 3rd try NZ were remembering to switch the ball to the outside arm?

Banquo wrote:

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:So, Nowell at 15 on Tuesday........

And Kruis dropped from first team..... mind you AWJ had a blinder yesterday

JJ has certainly fallen from grace, along with North. Don't get the Kruis piece.....looks like he will bench for the test side.

JJ might be in with a shout, still, maybe. JD had a mixed game with plenty of good carries but I did noticed him running out of the line in defence, though given Farrell almost encourages players to run out of the line in the supposed name of applying pressure maybe he gets a pass on that.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

p/d wrote: And Kruis dropped from first team..... mind you AWJ had a blinder yesterday

JJ has certainly fallen from grace, along with North. Don't get the Kruis piece.....looks like he will bench for the test side.

JJ might be in with a shout, still, maybe. JD had a mixed game with plenty of good carries but I did noticed him running out of the line in defence, though given Farrell almost encourages players to run out of the line in the supposed name of applying pressure maybe he gets a pass on that.

Think JJ is just not the type of center Farrell or Gatland want. And to be fair his form this year has been less impressive than last, although a little of that is due to what's going on inside him.

JD is a tad over rated in my opinion. He did some really good stuff on sat, but also some poor stuff. I think he's average when it comes to using space. For example, for SOBs try I thought he almost ruined it before he passed to Daly. As the first thing he did on getting the ball was rum towards the touchline, eating into Daly's space. Luckily Daly is awesome.

He also did a pointless long kick that stayed in play inviting pressure back on us, which is something i would have thought he would have eradicated from his game.

bitts wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: JJ has certainly fallen from grace, along with North. Don't get the Kruis piece.....looks like he will bench for the test side.

JJ might be in with a shout, still, maybe. JD had a mixed game with plenty of good carries but I did noticed him running out of the line in defence, though given Farrell almost encourages players to run out of the line in the supposed name of applying pressure maybe he gets a pass on that.

Think JJ is just not the type of center Farrell or Gatland want. And to be fair his form this year has been less impressive than last, although a little of that is due to what's going on inside him.

JD is a tad over rated in my opinion. He did some really good stuff on sat, but also some poor stuff. I think he's average when it comes to using space. For example, for SOBs try I thought he almost ruined it before he passed to Daly. As the first thing he did on getting the ball was rum towards the touchline, eating into Daly's space. Luckily Daly is awesome.

He also did a pointless long kick that stayed in play inviting pressure back on us, which is something i would have thought he would have eradicated from his game.

Agreed on JJ, they want a physical blitz/out to in defender,( not a (superb) drift defender), and essentially a direct runner, vs JJ's pace, footwork, better hands and outside break. I think his 'lack of form' is overstated, and its not through lack of effort- perhaps he has tried to force it a bit.

JD2 is a good player, but his decision making and passing needs work.

Banquo wrote:

bitts wrote:

Digby wrote:
JJ might be in with a shout, still, maybe. JD had a mixed game with plenty of good carries but I did noticed him running out of the line in defence, though given Farrell almost encourages players to run out of the line in the supposed name of applying pressure maybe he gets a pass on that.

Think JJ is just not the type of center Farrell or Gatland want. And to be fair his form this year has been less impressive than last, although a little of that is due to what's going on inside him.

JD is a tad over rated in my opinion. He did some really good stuff on sat, but also some poor stuff. I think he's average when it comes to using space. For example, for SOBs try I thought he almost ruined it before he passed to Daly. As the first thing he did on getting the ball was rum towards the touchline, eating into Daly's space. Luckily Daly is awesome.

He also did a pointless long kick that stayed in play inviting pressure back on us, which is something i would have thought he would have eradicated from his game.

Agreed on JJ, they want a physical blitz/out to in defender,( not a (superb) drift defender), and essentially a direct runner, vs JJ's pace, footwork, better hands and outside break. I think his 'lack of form' is overstated, and its not through lack of effort- perhaps he has tried to force it a bit.

JD2 is a good player, but his decision making and passing needs work.

And this is why Kiwis laugh at the NH

Glad to see Nowell at 15 from England's point of view. I think the best back 3 players England have are May,Daly and Watson. I know Yarde has his fans but i think he is pretty ordinary myself. But if Nowell actually got regular game time at 15 and looked decent enough then 2 from May,Watson and Daly would do for me.

As for JJ i always thought it was Farrell that did not rate him. Hearsay mostly but also remember an article years ago that is was Farrell stopping JJ playing when he was banging on the door for England. Also i seem to recall they almost reluctantly started him due to a late injury to one of the stodge centres for a Friday night game in Wales. That said i do think he stands a very good chance of making the Lions bench for Saturday. There is zero chance Gatland will start him over Davies.

Banquo wrote:

bitts wrote:

Digby wrote:
JJ might be in with a shout, still, maybe. JD had a mixed game with plenty of good carries but I did noticed him running out of the line in defence, though given Farrell almost encourages players to run out of the line in the supposed name of applying pressure maybe he gets a pass on that.

Think JJ is just not the type of center Farrell or Gatland want. And to be fair his form this year has been less impressive than last, although a little of that is due to what's going on inside him.

JD is a tad over rated in my opinion. He did some really good stuff on sat, but also some poor stuff. I think he's average when it comes to using space. For example, for SOBs try I thought he almost ruined it before he passed to Daly. As the first thing he did on getting the ball was rum towards the touchline, eating into Daly's space. Luckily Daly is awesome.

He also did a pointless long kick that stayed in play inviting pressure back on us, which is something i would have thought he would have eradicated from his game.

Agreed on JJ, they want a physical blitz/out to in defender,( not a (superb) drift defender), and essentially a direct runner, vs JJ's pace, footwork, better hands and outside break. I think his 'lack of form' is overstated, and its not through lack of effort- perhaps he has tried to force it a bit.

JD2 is a good player, but his decision making and passing needs work.

Gatland has always preferred the bludgeon over the rapier. JJ, with quick feet, an outside break, real gas etc.. is not his kind of player (though JJ's defence is actually pretty good). Meanwhile the midfield trio of pedestrian plodders - Farrell/Teo/Davies continue to mount little threat with their lack of pace, vision and footballing skills. I do not get all the raving about players like Teo breaking the gain line with their power, if all the gain line advantage counts for nothing when it comes to subsequent intelligent use of the ball. Gatland might just as well have selected Jamie Roberts or played C.J. Stander at 12. I know that Gatland is an ex-fat boy front rower, so you can't expect too much, but then again so is Dai Young, one of the best coaches in British rugby.

Hmm...can't agree about Te'o and JD on this tour. Both have carried plenty of threat in every game they've played. Not just battering away at the gain line, but a lot of clean breaks. The fact that the team isn't making the most of them is only a small part down to Te'o and JD, the shape in attack after a line break and subsequent breakdown has been awful all tour. Don't agree about 'pedestrian plodders' or 'lack of pace' either, as they are both pretty athletic with a decent turn of pace. For my money I'd say the centres were one of the few (only?) areas the Lions got the better of the AB's, at least until Te'o went off.

Timbo wrote:Hmm...can't agree about Te'o and JD on this tour. Both have carried plenty of threat in every game they've played. Don't agree about 'pedestrian plodders' or 'lack of pace' either, as they are both very athletic with a decent turn of pace. For my money I'd say the centres were one of the few (only) areas the Lions got the better of the AB's, at least until Te'o went off.

...running threat yes, passing/decision making just poor tbh.

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:Hmm...can't agree about Te'o and JD on this tour. Both have carried plenty of threat in every game they've played. Don't agree about 'pedestrian plodders' or 'lack of pace' either, as they are both very athletic with a decent turn of pace. For my money I'd say the centres were one of the few (only) areas the Lions got the better of the AB's, at least until Te'o went off.

...running threat yes, passing/decision making just poor tbh.

Yes, but Joseph is the only bloke on tour who could offer any sort of potential upgrade in that regard. BUT we shouldn't pretend that Joseph is a clear 100% upgrade, as JD offers other things that Joseph doesn't.

Timbo wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:Hmm...can't agree about Te'o and JD on this tour. Both have carried plenty of threat in every game they've played. Don't agree about 'pedestrian plodders' or 'lack of pace' either, as they are both very athletic with a decent turn of pace. For my money I'd say the centres were one of the few (only) areas the Lions got the better of the AB's, at least until Te'o went off.

...running threat yes, passing/decision making just poor tbh.

Yes, but Joseph is the only bloke on tour who could offer any sort of potential upgrade. BUT we shouldn't pretend that Joseph is a clear 100% upgrade, as JD offers other things that Joseph doesn't.

yes, entirely different players as I posted above, and they don't want what JJ offers in drift defence, though his communication and gas may have helped with the 1st two tries. I'm not advocating change, but neither am I saying Teo and JD have been anything like perfect- they did a good, but limited and limiting job.

Highlights the limiting factor of a Lions tour, the fact that you don't have the time to cater for a players weaknesses. An England player probably knows that Te'o is never giving that 25 yard pass off his left hand in the second half, but on other occasions does know that if you get close in support he'll often make a half break, stand up in contact and be good for an offload etc. Ideally you want players who have full skill sets but that's not always possible, especially when those skills are tested in the rarified atmosphere of an away Lions test in NZ.